Attachment Science in Action- A conversation with Jessica Sinarski {EP 164}

Robyn Gobbel: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the Baffling Behavior Show. It's me, Robyn Gobbel. But today, y'all, today I have a super special guest, Jessica Sinarsky, who you might know from, Riley the Brave, or her new book that just came out, Light Up The Learning Brain. Jessica actually has way more books, I think she told me that Light Up The Learning Brain is her ninth, you're definitely going to want to check out Jessica after this conversation, if you don't already know her and get all her resources. Jessica and I have been friends for many years, colleagues first, and then over time, we've just developed a closer and closer relationship. And we thought it would be fun if we got together and did a live webinar together all about bringing attachment science into action and how that can help us who wear this professional hat- how they can help us really find a way to love our work. Again, if you listen to the Baffling Behavior Show as a parent, I encourage you to stick around anyway, there are so many parallels between the professional experience- working with kids with vulnerable nervous systems, working from an attachment brain based perspective. There's just so many parallels to parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems from an attachment and brain based perspective. So even if you're a parent, not a professional, I encourage you to stick around, I think you'll get a lot out of this conversation, Jessica and I start by just chatting about kind of how we- when we realized that what we knew what to do with kids wasn't going to be helpful and working with kids was such a vulnerability in their nervous system, particularly trauma and attachment histories. And so again, if you're listening as a parent, you may also remember the moment you realize that what you knew about parenting or what you knew about children really just wasn't adequate for caring for kids with histories of vulnerable nervous systems. They use big baffling behaviors. And you know, this attachment trauma history, right? Again, huge parallels. And so we both share our experiences. And when we realized, hmm, I think I'm really missing something here. And then our journeys of putting attachment, science really into practice in a way that was useful for the clients who were coming to us. We also chat a little bit about what to do or how to navigate. If you are shifting from more behavioral approach to a more attachment, trauma, relational neuroscience based approach in your practice, how we can take steps to be able to make that shift for ourselves and for our clients. And we kind of mused about the relief- the relief when we really realized we don't have to know all or even most of the answers. So again, if you're tuning in as a parent, I think you can see how this conversation is really going to parallel. Because that's true for us as parents too, right? Like the relief, we can feel once we start to really believe the truth that we don't have to have- it's not impossible- it's not possible to have all the answers. So anyway, without any further delay, I'm just going to hit play and get us into this really fun conversation that Jess and I had just a few weeks ago about how to love our work again by bringing attachment science into practice. Here you go ya'll!

Jessica Sinarsky: Robyn and I connected several years ago, I don't even remember how I came across your work. It was right at the beginning of when I was writing, Riley the Brave. And I think I reached out for a consult, I want to say because I was figuring out some of the professional end and training I don't remember anyway. And since then, we actually finally met in person in 2022!

Robyn: I feel like and I know that Kendra is here, that Kendra, from OPARC is really responsible for conn- I mean and I actually think that's true. I think Kendra was like, "You know Jessica, you need to keep doing-" and probably was the same on the other end. And then of course, we have such a lovely relationship with OPARC.

Jessica: Yay. OPARC indeed. So yes, that's exactly what happened because I remember Kendra had- we had connected around Riley the Brave, and I did some speaking for them. And Kendra said something very kind afterwards. And then she's like, and we have high standard like, Robyn Gobbel. I was like, Oh, crap, I don't know who Robyn Gobbel is! And indeed, she was correct. It was high standards. And so it's really been through this mutual passion for understanding the brain and what behavior really is, and even the animal metaphor, concept. That has, I think, united us across the miles. And I think the other thing, too, has been a real passion for, or at least, this is what I've sensed in our conversations over the years is a real passion for helping, for supporting, not just the kid, but all of the adults around the kid and understanding that, that is what's needed. Like if we're thinking from a child first perspective, we have to think about how we're supporting family and teachers and counselors and therapists and social workers and everybody involved. And so that shared commitment and passion, I think, also brought us together.

Robyn: Yeah, I totally agree. And then from like, this relational theme of like, you know, I'm sure everybody here can relate. Like, we're, we're constantly on the lookout for people that we feel really seen by. And in doing this work that feels hard to find a lot of times. And so I think, when we find those people that we feel like, such resonance with and so seen by, right? Of like, we love these kids, we love their parents, we love this work. We love the science. And we love also making the science useful, right? Yeah, because those things don't always all go together. And that feels like such a like this very conversation we're having today feels like such a part of like our synergy and why it's just been so easy, despite only meeting one time.

Jessica: That's right. I agree. I agree with all of that. Because I think the- Part of just the impetus for us getting together today with all of you is that I felt a lot earlier in my career like, this is so hard, this is so hard, this is so hard. And as I sort of stumbled into attachment and trauma and the brain and bottom up approaches, and really understanding even the balance between those body based practices and boundaries and healthy communication, and that that doesn't mean you're a doormat or like that these- being a therapeutic parent, or, you know, working from a brain based perspective doesn't mean being permissive, or we're being taken advantage of. And I think those nuances, you know, I love I love the chance to tease that out a little bit. So, so maybe that's where we'll dive in a little bit is, as I was thinking, I mean, there's a lot of directions we could go today. But one thing that was super eye opening for me, as I started understanding more about neurobiology, and especially related to trauma and attachment is that so many of the practices, so many of the modalities that I was taught in graduate school or early in my career, weren't reaching the part of the brain that was hurting. In my kids, you know, in the kids I was working with, in the adults I was working with, and you know, we're trying to think our way to better functioning, different functioning- seeing certain behaviors as maladaptive and come to realize all behavior makes sense. And your survival, your way of surviving is good and fine and it ended served you. And maybe there are even times it's still serving you. And so just thinking my way through isn't going to fix it. And fixing it isn't even the goal in the first place. But that's a whole other conversation. So I don't know, Robyn, how did- can you think of any aha moments? Or what was your like? What was your approach into this world of like, Whoa, this is different and it feels good.

Robyn: I remember super clearly, and I maybe have written about it in the book, if I haven't, I've just talked about it a lot. Like it's a really clear story for me. And it doesn't start with this feels good to start to this feels bad. That like, I always- I think this is similar for you always wanted to do this work with this specific population. And when I actually got to truly do it, like, like, no internships, no nothing like that. But like, really like a grown up doing work. When you know, these kids and their families, how quickly I realized, Oh, these kids and families have been to like, a million therapists before me. I have having no idea what I'm doing. And that's gotten increasingly obvious in such a short period of time, because the tools I was equipped with, were like, laughable, right, like the room was destroyed. Or, like, I've really, truly left the office with a black eye, like an outpatient mental health therapy, I left with a serious black eye once. And there was such a clear like, I have no idea what I'm doing. This feels bad. Yes. I also am not willing to keep referring these people out because they've been referred out 47,000 times even get to me. So I guess I have to figure out, like, what's happening here. And I was super lucky that I was connected in Austin- when I lived in Ausin at the time, with a mentor who was really steeped in neurobiology and attachment and trauma. And so he really helped, first validate me, right, like, you're right, the things you're trained with actually aren't helpful. And it's not because you're bad at this, it's because you, you just haven't learned these other things yet. And so like to bring some hope and some clarity to that piece. And then really dive into the neuroscience. And I know, I think we're pretty similar on this. Like, I've just been like, obsessively seeking, how does this behavior like- what? Why is this happening?

Jessica: So I feel like what you're describing, maybe some of you who are here today can relate to and maybe you're in that phase right now, maybe you're moving through that phase or or remember those times? Or maybe you didn't have to experience it, because you had a different training or, you know. I know there are improvements happening, it's just slow, it's slow for the science to catch up in a way that translates to action. And so I, you know, right out of the gate, I was working in the South Bronx in foster care, and had a very similar like, I didn't know what I didn't know, I just knew that- that what I knew was not enough and not really equipping me to come alongside in the ways that I- that I wanted to, and it wrecked me for a while, like my family was concerned about me. It was, you know, it was a hot mess there for a while. And I also feel really fortunate to have been able to learn and grow a lot with Jon Baylin, who is just obsessed with the brain in the most delightful way. And- and you know, I had that same hunger of like, why is this happening? Like I was seeing these these miscommunications galore, where the kid is trying everything they know to try, which mostly looks like bad behavior. And the parents be they birth, foster, adoptive, you know, grandparents, whoever it is, are trying all the things they know to try. And then like you I've heard my whole career. Oh, well, a therapist told us to do this, or our social worker said he'll ask about adoption when he wants to know about adoption, or, you know, we heard this from so and so and it- it breaks my heart. And so that is part of, I think both of our commitment to you to say it doesn't have to be like this, like, you don't have to be alone with it, it shouldn't be so hard to find this information. And that, if you're feeling that disconnect, like, how you were practicing, or what you learned, does it fit with with the science that you're learning now, or it's not resonating with you, pay attention to that. So that actually brings me to one of the questions that we got ahead of time, I'm in the midst of a personal and professional paradigm shift. My work is successful in that my caseload is always full, I have a niche and a good reputation. But my work is no longer aligned with what I'm learning about connection, co regulation or exception. It's currently primarily behavioral based any advice as I think about pivoting my work from a less behavioral approach? I feel like I'll be starting over professionally and give up my current success, so to speak. So my immediate response was, do it! Make the switch? But I'm curious, Robyn, if you have a- what- what your response to that? That pain point might be?

Robyn: I mean, from what- I hear the fear of, what if I, you know, take a risk, show up as truly me, and people don't like it? And that hurts me like both both personally and professionally. And so my, like my first thought, and that is like, oh, man, do we all not know that feeling in some way? And especially when you add into it, like, these are our jobs, and in western capitalistic society, it's how we survive, right? And so that gets scary too like, you know, losing clients is- is hard in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, my first thought is like, that's really, really scary. And my second thought, is, I'm a huge believer that both us and our clients really deserve the opportunity to fully consent to how we're working. And my clients deserve the opportunity to fully consent to how I work. And if they really want a behavioral based bottle. And I'm starting to shift away from that, that's a conversation that we all like really deserve to have, so that they can make a choice about where they want to get, you know, the help that they want. And probably some people actually will decide they want something else. That's a believe it or not, is going to be okay.

Jessica: Yeah. Yes, I think, yeah, I agree. I feel like that honouring of the relationship is- is part of putting the science into practice. That is not- this isn't just transactional. We- I think therapy is such or social work, like these, these helping professions are so funny, and that someone is- really someone's paying me, in part for my expertise and education, and, you know, tools and all of that stuff. But there's a little part of it that's like someone's paying me to listen to you, like to be in relationship with you is sort of how it feels sometimes. Because I loved being a therapist, I'm not in practice right now. But I love that. And, and I- I remember a mentor, saying something similar to me years ago, when I was feeling stuck with a client that it's okay to bring that in the room. So whether the stuckness is around, you know, what you've learned and what you're trying to put in practice in healthy ways. And that shift that was the heart of the question that that we just were talking about, or if that stuckness is related to something else. And I think particular- I think this happens in every aspect of therapeutic practice, but particularly when we're working with parents with kids who have big baffling behaviors, with kids who have experienced trauma, kids who experienced the world a little bit differently than maybe I do. Kids who have, you know, fetal alcohol exposure, like all of these reasons that a child's behavior may be really tough, righ? Really tough for the family, really tough at school, really tough in the- in the world. And so I think one of the misnomers, I get sometimes when talking about how I practice or teaching about, you know, interpersonal neurobiology is that we have to- that it's a little bit of like all-or-nothing thinking, that you're either directive or non directive, or you're either for the child or for the parent, or you're either behavioral or not, whatever not is. But the reality is behavior comes from the brain. And so in my mind, there's so much more gray in the middle of all of that, which is messy and hard, but also, I think, brings some freedom. So I feel like there's two directions I want to go and and maybe to start with is, is to think about that, how we- how interpersonal neurobiology informs stuckness particularly in a therapeutic or social work kind of relationship. I don't know, if you want to jump in on that topic.

Robyn: As you're talking, one of the things I keep coming back to you that's related to what you just said too, is if we're going to- when thinking about, you know, turning attachment theory into practice, how we can really utilize the parallel process. So, you know, whether we're talking about stuckness, or whether we're talking about our fear of switching away from behavior based model, like we're having the same experiences that the parents of the kids we work with are experiencing. And that helps me come back into, like, connection, compassion, empathy, for them and for me, right?That, like, of course, parents are afraid to switch out of a behavior based model. We are too. There's so much vulnerability in that, right? Like, as we lean into trusting what can't be seen. That's really scary. Especially because these kids behaviors are scary and dangerous. Yeah. At the very least, their families are struggling so mightily, right. And then it really, truly, so many times are scary and dangerous. Like, like, we're not talking about annoying behavior, although we're talking about that, too. Sometimes we are, for sure, that is true as well. But so many of the kids that sort of, I think end up in our offices, and probably in the offices of people who have logged on, right? That because we're finding ourselves in this kind of like crisis of switching to a different model or- or because we're really wanting to think about attachment theory and put it into practice, most of us are working with kids who have pretty intense behaviors. So there's a sense of urgency. From our experience of like, I mean, how many times- I still am at risk of this of like, kind of really like, this feels so big this, this feels so big, and then turning to someone and essentially saying to them, tell me what to do. Yeah, just the same thing that parents are doing. Right? And so of course, they're so scared to think about anything outside like a cause and effect behavior based model. Which, for me, is where a lot of what can feel like stuckness happens, right? Like there's a stuckness between me and the parents, maybe about, like, this thing's not getting better, or telling me what to do to make this thing better. Or I've done what you've said, and it's still not getting better. So I don't want to do it anymore. Like those. That's kind of what I think about and I feel the word stuck.

Jessica: Yes. I think that's spot on. And I think the fear- the fear component is helpful. And I think you were talking about a parallel process. We had a question in the chat, that there's this parallel process that's happening, like nervous systems, are nervous systems, are nervous systems. So I, as a therapist, as a clinical supervisor, I bring my brain and body into the room. Right? And I think understanding- understanding the neurobiology of fear and how that plays into relationship, like that- exactly what you're talking about, that parallel process of like when the parent is feeling frenetic about these sometimes- sometimes annoying, and I want to tell them to just chill out and sometimes truly concerning life threatening, dangerous kinds of behaviors. I feel- I feel that same thing with the adults that I'm working with, right? I feel that same sense of like, they're coming to me that sort of fight-flight activation. And this, I think, is where the polyvagal theory, which also informs both of our work mightily, is so so helpful, because I can check in with myself of, is this coming from a steady, grounded centered place? Which doesn't mean calm, which doesn't mean happy. But from my upstairs brain? Or is this my fight flight activation? Is this that sympathetic activation? That- and now I'm striving, I'm paddling, I'm in a state that is not helping to steady the other person. And often the other person I'm trying to steady is, is the parent or the, you know, the other professional that I'm working with? Or the teacher or the school counselor, right? I think of it sometimes- in case this is helpful for anyone. Over the last couple years, I've been really drawn to like hawks. And you know, some of those big birds. A lot over here on the East Coast and I find myself feeling something I can't quite put my finger on the feeling, but when I see them. And usually you see them soaring, right, you usually see them when they're up in the air. I also- my youngest really enjoys nature shows, we watch a lot of shows about nature, if you see a hawk, or a raptor or an eagle, or whatever, when they are getting off the ground, it is ugly, like it is not a great picture. And so one of the things I think about a lot is and if polyvagal is totally unfamiliar to you- let this just be the metaphor that it is don't worry about the the words or names, but I think of that, you know, ventral vagal state that upstairs brain state as that soaring state where I'm aware, I can shift, I can do the things I need to do. But so often without real connection, not just with knowing enough, but without real connection, I find myself flapping and so I'll check in with myself when I have a new project or when I'm feeling worn out. Am I flapping? Am I fallen? Right? Am I all the way down in that dorsal vagal collapse state? Or is this coming from you know- and you can just feel it in your body? Is this coming from that soaring state? Which you're not going to be in all the time? It's not like I think that was another one of those misnomers that I needed to work my way through. That's not possible all the time. And that's not our goal for parents. And that's not our goal for kids. And so, here again, we end up in these these parallel processes, that if we can notice them, and get the support we need around the natural feelings we're having. There's a way forward.

Robyn: Yeah, you know, someone else kind of commented on what we were saying about like, it just feels so scary to shift out of this place of like, my job is to fix everything or to know the answers. And without question- I mean, my identity, if it's not obvious, you know, I've learned that I made people happy by knowing lots of things when I was young. And so one of the ways of taking attachment theory and putting it truly into practice, is really embodying the truth that actually, me staying stuck in I've got to figure out how to answer this question or fix this problem for this person is actually not good clinical care. Right? Like that is- it's not criticism, and I'm not shaming myself for that. But that feeling of this is my job. I'm taking responsibility for this, somehow I should have the answer, is coming from, you know- we could use lots of you know, if we were going to use for IPNB language, I could say like a state of disintegration if we wanted to use polyvagal language, you know, we could say that's coming more from a neuro, you know, neuroceiving danger from that protection mode. And that really helped me shift out of this well earned protector of I have to know everything- If you ask me a question, it's because I obviously should know the answer. I mean, that's how I've moved through the world and had to figure out how to be okay, with actually the answer is being brave enough to really sit in a place of I don't know. And a place of curiosity. That that actually, is taking attachment theory and putting it in to practice, it's not really about a technique at all.

Jessica: It's not. And I think that I feel- I so resonate with the, it's not a technique at all, it's really, it really changes you. We change each other, I think that's like, that's the whole- that's the whole deal with how brains develop with how humans develop is that we are intensely relational. And we have ways our- our brains and our bodies find ways to navigate that when something is creating some friction, or when survival is on the line in whatever way that looks like. And sometimes that's in real, you know- I think many of us on this call today know plenty of real life, survival was on the line, you know, this kiddo was gonna die if they didn't do X, Y, and Z. And we also know plenty of those moments, for me, my- my physical life wasn't on the line as a kid, right.? But I certainly have some of those downstairs brain protectors, some of  that energy that comes from hurt and wounds. That if I'm not aware of it- in life, in general, but especially in this field, it is going to come out in ways that aren't fair to anyone involved, not even to me, let alone to the clients that I'm trying to serve. And so I think part of loving your work, again, is being able to say, I don't know, and this is really hard, and I'm here with you in it, it doesn't mean I'll never know, it doesn't mean that this person is alone and should you should refer them out. But to be able in the moment in a session, at a home visit, to sit with this as hard and sad and effed up. And Bleh.

Robyn: Yeah, for sure.

Jessica: Without the I mean, the immediate, like, backlash I get in my body is, it doesn't mean it's gonna be that way forever, right? But sometimes we have to just sit in the muck for a minute. Yeah. And I see a question here. Oh, nope, that's not the question. I thought it was sorry. So I was what I thought the question was getting at is, when you feel like you've been in the muck for a long time, when you feel like you've been holding space, when you feel like you're doing the relational things you're supposed to do. And I know I've gotten to this point, with some clients where I'm like this, it feels unethical to keep sort of, treading water, is what it felt like, we're just- you know, these are the things that I think are going to be helpful. And if you don't want to do those things, or it's hard to do, like, let's explore why those things are hard, whatever. Like, I'm thinking of one client in particular. That sometimes it's okay to bring that in the room, that we can trust our clients enough to say, Hey, I'm feeling really stuck. I sort of feel like we're having- from a really grounded place to make sure you've gotten good supervision and support beforehand, so you're not blaming them for your stuckness to go in and say, you know, I feel really stuck and I'm not sure where that's coming from. I- you know, we've gone round and round about like, I think this thing will be helpful. It seems like this thing is really hard to do. Like I'm thinking about, you know, I had recommended some body based practices and neurofeedback and some things to really help the nervous system. And it wasn't resonating or wasn't working for whatever reason and that it's okay to be honest about that and explore with curiosity and not judgment. I feel like I'm saying that all really vaguely because I want to protect my client. Not that they will ever see this, but I'm just super, super conscious of protecting people's stories. I wonder, I wonder if that's bringing up anything for you?

Robyn: Well, I think there's always this place of getting curious about like, is this- you know, have we reached an impasse where like, we might want to talk about referrals? I mean, as crude as this might sound, I really feel like when people go to McDonald's, they need to order a Big Mac. And if they go to McDonald's, and they order a whopper, they're going to be upset with what they get. And so that, again, kind of feels like consent for me. Like, if I'm working with a client who's like, I really actually- what you're offering me isn't what I came here for. I think that there's a space to really talk about that. And then really empower the clients to be like, this isn't what you want. And that's totally fine. Versus, you know, again, and this is where interpersonal neurobiology and attachment theory, and really putting it into practice has been helpful with me is also thinking about it through an attachment lens, right? Is this experience that this person is having here, Is their challenge in kind of doing this thing that I really believe will be helpful for them? Is that giving me some information about what's happening for them neurobiologically that maybe I didn't know before? Right? Like, they're, you know, like, when I- a client can come to mind for me, just like you said, about, you know, really trying to do some work on connecting to themselves, right? Like, I was asking a lot of questions like, do notice, I'm wondering if, you know, that kind of stuff. And like, those questions weren't just, I mean, ignored, it was as if those questions ever even happened. And really, of course, can feel frustrating, especially if you feel like you know something that would be helpful to somebody. Really pausing to reflect on like, in this specific situation, that person just still didn't have the internalized resources that were being built through our slow co-regulated relationship to be present with themselves. And the own- the theory is what kind of helps me have a guess about which way do we go, right? Like, do we stay here very focused on co-regulation? Or do I start to talk to this person about like, maybe this isn't the exact right treatment experience for you? And we want to talk about that. And it's real hard to put that into words like when would I choose one way or the other. But again, that just brings me back to like, the theory, like grounding it in the theory, and grounding in connection with myself, helps me at least know that there's a couple different options, and then to explore those with the client.

Jessica: Yes, that I don't need to figure it out on my own. In fact, it's a little arrogant of me to think I might.

Robyn: It is, with again, with no criticism. All of us came to this work, probably because it feels good to have to help people. And we like how that feels. And navigating that reality with like, actually, it's pretty paternalistic to I think I know something about this person that- like, I'm not an expert in this person. They're the expert. They're here to teach me about them. Yes.

Jessica: And there's freedom in that. I think that's again, you know, coming back to this theme of loving our work again, there's freedom in not having to know all the answers. That doesn't let us off the hook of learning and doing our own work and showing up well, I'm not saying we go to just reflect what they say and being calling it therapy. I apologize if I just offended anyone. But I think we know more now. And it is our ethical obligation to put these theories into practice and to use the science that we have. I see in the chat from the other side of therapy sometimes we don't even know ourselves and I think that is spot on. That's why you're there. And that's why it is the social worker or therapist, or whoever's job to be genuinely in a therapeutic relationship with you, so that it is safe to be you, it's safe to be seen and known by this other person and by yourself. And, and that's how- that's how our brains and bodies develop. We don't know ourselves first, we only know ourselves through the good enough parent or the parent that has hurt us. And so to think that it could all be cognitive, that change could all be cognitive, when we're dealing with deep deep hurts, feels short sighted, I guess at this at this point in what we know.

Robyn: Yeah, just to kind of go off of what this person said here and not go off. But to continue on with what this person said in the comments. Sometimes we don't know ourselves. Yeah, I have been that client, like I've been the client who sat on the couch and was like,  just totally baffled and confused, like, yeah, I didn't know I- in retrospect, I look back. And I'm like, I didn't know myself, I didn't have a solid enough sense of myself yet. And how that emerged wasn't a therapist telling me. Right, how that emerged as a therapist, sitting in deep resonance, deep reflection, you know, lots of regulation through my ranting and ravings, and right, that through that experience, through seeing on their face, and in their actions, you know, I learned something new about who I was, how I showed up in the world what my value was, but I didn't learn it because she told me it. Yeah, I learned it because of how she held herself. What just was. And that can feel like such not enough. But it's me being on both sides of the couch that is really what gives me the confidence. It is enough, because I have been that client.

Jessica: I was just thinking. The other thing that so hopeful for me in that is, it's not just in a in a therapy, client situation that that happens that I know who I am, in part, because of how I see myself through other people, not by what they say, necessarily. So as you were describing that experience with your therapist, I think of my very best friend in the world, and the healing force that she has been for me, I think of my husband and the ways that he has seen and known the worst parts of me, and loved me anyway, and how healing those relationships are. And so I think that, again, is the hopeful side for every single person watching this, whether you're a foster parent, or a therapist, or social worker, or a teacher, or we're just a human out in the world, is that there's- while there are, I think, magical things that happen in therapy, they don't only happen in therapy, relationship is relationship is relationship. And I think- so I often sign my emails, "I'm glad we're in this together." Because I think that's the only way it can be. I don't have all the answers. You don't have all the answers. We're going to find our way through. So that does leave us with some of what a couple of you came with questions around. How does this work in the midst of the insurance model of care? We're gonna solve all those problems in the next 14 minutes.

Robyn: No, y'all we're not. That's a joke. I do thin- I am not an expert documentation, I send people to learn about how to document but I do think there is a way to document that is honest! And meets the criteria of the people of the third party payers. And I can't teach you how to do that. But I do think it's possible somebody taught me how to do that not well, and again, not well enough for me to teach someone else but did you think that's really possible to do that- document authentically, and do the work inside the session that we believe, like resonates with us.

Jessica: And that is something we talk about. So, you'll hear- you may have already heard from me about it, you will hear more about it. The moving beyond trauma informed course that's starting soon, one of the things that we talk about is goal setting, as a therapist, primarily, but certainly in social work and other things as well, that we want to be really conscientious- if that- that the science can help us set appropriate goals. So that as we're documenting, we are saying the things that we are actually working on in an ethical way, that from our understanding of how brains and bodies work, is the goal. And so instead of, you know, eliminating X behavior and X way, we are, you know, doing X thing to increase felt safety in the therapeutic relationship, we're working on this in the dyadic, you know, we're working to reduce blocked care for this parent, and these certain ways that blocked care is- parenting is really hard in the best of circumstances, and our brains go into protection mode. And when that protection mode gets strong, this kid is not going to get better if I'm not supporting the parent, or we're working with a team to support the parent around that. So I think it, you know, it's complicated, there's not a quick answer to how, do we do this in the world of insurance? And there are- there are ways through. And there are frustrations along those ways and limits and points at which you might decide you can't take this certain insurance, because it just never seems to go well or you like- and that's hard and heartbreaking. But part of being able to show up for the clients that you can show up for is navigating that conscientiously, that's not the right word- but with with thought and care, that it's easy for the obstacles to send us into protection mode. And so if you're here feeling, you know, sort of torn apart by some of the logistics of loving your work, man, you are not alone. And I think again, this where connection can be so powerful and helpful, because if we can find, like you said, you may send them to somebody who can be helpful in that space. Even if that's not something that you're actively like working on, these things are important, and they are things that get in the way.

Robyn: There's a question coming in, I'd love to attend to you, because I think it really supports like the work that you're doing, Jessica, and the way that you're teaching therapists to do this work about like, how- you know, when we're losing passion for our work, due to, like, kind of like information overload in a way, right? Like, there's so many theories, there's so many modalities,we are taught all this stuff. And then that almost can leave us like, sort of in the opposite place of feeling like, there's so much to know, I can never possibly know all of it, and there can feel like a lot of overwhelm in that. And that also kind of goes along with another thought that I've been having earlier, which is, I think it's easy to leave these kinds of conversations or trainings that are about attachment and relationship and interpersonal neurobiology to think that what we're saying is, all you have to do is show up in the room and bring your relationship and well, everything's- No, no, no, no, we're not suggesting that you don't have a lot of tools in your toolbox. But what we are suggesting is that the tools you use are wide and varied. The tools can be, you know, offered up inside what like the interpersonal neurobiology is telling us about like resonance and serve and return. Right? It doesn't matter if I'm doing EMDR, somatic experiencing, or theraplay, or whatever, whatever, whatever. I mean, some of the modalities matter a little when we think about the place in the brain that we're trying to target. But beyond that, some of us love sandtray, some of us love play therapy, some of us love movement based work, some of us, like, we all have different loves. And I actually think that's the most important part like if I love an intervention, I'm going to show up with resonance and, and curiosity with it. And then I'm going to offer it in this foundation of the attachment theory and the interpersonal neurobiology. And so I think, my experience, Jessica, I'd love to hear what you have to say but this question of this person is asking about- like, learning too much. Like what feels like it? It feels like a pretty normal part of the therapeutic professional development trajectory, that because of our culture, but because of grad school, because of insurance companies, because of so many things. We spend a lot of time, I feel like, early in our career, getting lots of tools. And this is normal. And not bad. And I again, I think it's just a part of development that we have to go through. And then there comes a point where we start to notice what really resonates with us, when we start to realize like, oh, this tool is not any better than the next tool. They they're all sort of doing the same thing. It's kind of like, which tool do I like better? Which tool do my clients like better, but I actually do think it's important to think about what do I like better, because those clients will be the ones, you know, who come to us and staying like really connected to those interventions. And then getting really grounded with ourselves. That that is kind of the next professional development step is- connection to ourselves, trust in ourselves. trust that we don't need all of these tools. They're there. But they're not really what the magic is. And so I think- a summary of my very long winded thoughts there are, I think it's helpful to know that that's a pretty normal part of therapist developmental trajectory. And in my consultation, I usually kind of see that as a little cue, that it might be time to pull back from learning interventions. And move back into now my focus is on connection to myself.

Jessica: Yeah, and even, I mean, you. You make me think of the- or I'm thinking as you're talking of that, that like it's not the extremes that we do want to learn and of course, you're hungry for learning early or I hope you're hungry for learning early in your career and I hope you stay hungry for learning and are never satisfied with sort of business as usual. And that that's coming from a soaring eagle place of hope and connection to self and connection to others as opposed to what I felt though a lot of as I was sort of digging my way through and working with trauma is find the magic thing. Like it's going- well that modality is going to do it, well EMDR is the thing, neurofeedback is the thing, like sensory processing is the thing, they are all the things. And so I love the recommendation to find some of those things that you love. Maybe you go way down a certain specialty and you only do this one certain thing, great, there's probably people that need that and my experience is we all need a lot of the things that are coming from, you know, steady, genuine, you. So that is really part of why we invited you into this time together is that there is just so much power in steady, genuine, humans. Getting unsteady and steady again together. That's going to happen professionally and that's going to happen with your clients and that's going to happen in your families. There's no- there's no perfect therapy. there's no perfect parenting. there's no perfect social working. We can- we show up and we mess up and, you know, I know for me one of the big things that I would try to shut down was any mistake because then I failed, mistake equals failure. Whoa. What a way to live. That's not serving my cleints well, that's not serving me well.

Robyn: It isn't aligned with attachment theory. It is just like- I'm obsessed with the science because it teaches me it's okay to just be human, which I've been desperately searching for my whole life, right? Like, making zero mistakes in therapy is bad therapy. And attachment theory tells us that.

Jessica: We could talk forever. I recognize they're like two minutes left. But yeah, so here's where can people find you, Robyn? If they are new to your work, what is the best way for them to connect with you?

Robyn: Yeah! I am pretty easy to find. Robyn Gobbel. robyngobbel.com. Just searching Robyn Gobbel will take you to my website and my podcast and my book and social media. I guess those are kind of the main places that people connect, connect with me and my name. It's not totally normal. It's a little unusual. So I'm really easy to find, probably like you are.

Jessica:  So people are asking how do I get in this course. So you're gonna send emails! My husband will often tell me that I'm the most famous Sinarsky. So we'll stay connected. I know some of you came to this, because you already know and are familiar with Robyn's work. So I'm glad you're here. If you are new to me, hi! I love making things, the invisible visible. I love these moments of connection. And you will hear a little bit more from me about the Moving Beyond Trauma Informed course. It has just been so helpful for therapists and social workers especially. And I see some former participants in the chat talking it up, which I appreciate. And this will be the last year that I offer it in this sort of live format that it's been in. So I hope that you will join in, if and otherwise, you can also find me on Instagram. It's the place I'm most active, partly because I like that visual thing. And you can find my books and resources at jessicasinarsky.com. I will, I will send emails. And in the meantime, if you are listening to this on the go, if you go to jessicasinarsky/transform, that is- that is where you will find all the info you can register, it starts next week. So make sure you jump on that if that's something you're interested in. I did see a question in the Q&A about where do I start with all this stuff if this is kind of newer to me. And I really designed the course to be great for those who want to dig deeper and expand their knowledge as well as for the newbies. We sort of hit that sweet spot where I provide resources and things to go deeper if there's a certain topic in this rich world of attachment and brain and trauma that you want to dig into more. So jessicasinarsky.com/transform, you will also get an email with this recording, with the certificate of attendance. All of that is coming later this week. So I'm sorry. And you're welcome for all of the emails that are continuing to head your way.

Robyn: Jessica, thanks for inviting me and for your continued friendship and just the relationship that we have is so grounding and important to me. So thank you.

Jessica: Right! Agree and thank you for being willing to show up and to share this with your community and to all of you who spent your time with me and Robyn here and now and who are catching this!