I HATE YOU! And Other Big Feelings {EP 168}

Robyn: This is a topic I've had on my podcast episode list for a long time. And I've even outlined it before, and then kind of put it aside. Because this is such a nuanced topic to address. And to address it in the format of something like a podcast where, of course, I'm not giving you information that's really unique and really specific to you, or your kid or your situation, has just felt a little vulnerable to me. That said, I am getting some version of this question repeatedly, how do I respond to my kid when they use words like I hate you, or you hate me, or I'm going to hurt you, or I'm going to kill you, or I'm going to kill my brother, or my teacher? What do we say? Why are they saying those things? And what do we say? And so, I've decided I'm going to do what I asked you to do repeatedly. And that's to be brave and regulate through the vulnerability. There's a little bit of fear that something that I'll say in this episode could be misinterpreted. And somebody could take what I say and turn it into, like not taking their kids seriously or not addressing threats seriously. And yeah, that makes me a little bit anxious. And I'm going to do the best that I can be really clear about what I'm saying. And trust that this episode will get to who really really needs it. That also, of course, I'm a big fan on my podcast of talking plainly about stuff that folks aren't talking plainly about, I think that really helps us to de-shame what's happening in our families. I think it takes the mystery off what's happening in our families. And if talking about how to address our kids, when they say these really big things helps any of you feel less alone, then it's going to be worth it.    

Robyn: So just to reiterate, this episode is not in any way, shape, or form. None of my episodes are to replace individualized mental health care. I don't know you I don't know your family. So always, always, always take what I say with a grain of salt. Take what resonates. Leave the rest. And if you have a child who's in need of mental health treatment, please keep pursuing receiving the treatment that you need. I know that in some ways, that's a ridiculous thing to say because I know that the mental health treatment that you need is very, very, very hard to receive. But please also know that even though that's true, this podcast and this episode is not intended to replace that or to give you the kind of individualized care that you and your child really need and deserve. So, with all that said, let's dive in. Let's be brave.    

Robyn: Okay, so what do we do when our kids say, really big things? Things like I hate you, I hate me, you hate me, I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to kill you, I'm going to kill someone else. What do we do? Let's start off with words that aren't an obvious threat of harm to self or others. So something like you hate to me, or I hate you. Okay? Always, always, always remember, that behavior is just a cue or clue, right? It's a cue or, clue to what's happening on the inside. And so we actually want to see if we can pause, focus on the words, and think about what's the intensity? What's the level of arousal or activation that's underneath those words. Oftentimes, aggressive language is kind of the hallmark of that 'Back Off' Level Watchdog. Right? So if we go back to the Watchdog pathway, we go back to Dr. Perry's arousal and activation continuum, the language that I use is that we go from 'What's Up' to 'Ready For Action' to 'Back Off' to 'Attack.' And that corresponds with Dr. Perry's ideas of his activation or arousal continuum, and going from alert, to alarm, to fear, to terror. So, 'Back Off' level Watchdog is pretty far down that arousal activation continuum. And generally speaking, these are very effective strategies, right? Like, starting to say really big things like I hate you, or you hate me, those are effective 'Back Off' strategies, almost always those strategies work, you start focusing on something else. And that's the words that were said. Right?    

Robyn: So let's keep that in mind that 'Back Off' language is a strategy that's attempting to communicate, I need you to back off, right? Those are strategies that come from a nervous system that's feeling trapped, or backed into a corner. And again, remember, the Watchdog pathway has energy and activation. And that energy and activation is all designed, the entire purpose of that energy and activation is to stay safe. So verbal aggression is an intensity, it's a 'Back Off' behavior, that is often times, kind of, just one step before we start to see physical backoff behavior, right? So that intensity is going to start to get channeled into arms and legs, and we're gonna see fighting and fleeing soon, right? This is kind of one step before, this is this verbal, back off, language that is attempting to very clearly communicate, 'I need you to back off, I feel backed into a corner.' So let's stay on this assessment of the behavior for a moment, that it's a ‘Back Off’ level behavior, you want to consider thinking about matching the energy and reflecting those words back. Really I said that, so take a breath. And let me say that again, match the energy and reflect those words back, I do have an entire separate podcast episode all about matching the energy without the dysregulation, we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. It's a real popular one. It's going to be one that kind of accompanies a lot of episodes on this podcast, so you might want to bookmark it.    

Robyn: So, you hear the words I hate you, right? An option, something to reflect back with matching the energy but without dysregulation could be something like, you think I hate you, or, it feels like I hate you. So remember, matching the energy without the dysregulation isn't to confirm what they're saying. You're not saying yes, I do hate you. Matching the energy without the regulation is about clearly communicating, I see you, I hear what you've said, I hear the intensity that's underneath, I hear the pain that's underneath. And matching the energy is a way to meet up with our kids, which makes our energy closer to theirs, it makes our energy something they're going to be more likely to be able to connect up with. And we want that, we want them to be able to connect with our energy, which has similar intensity, but without the dysregulation, right? So again, go to match the energy, not the dysregulation for further exploration of this. So reflect back, you think I hate you, it feels like I hate you. You may be able to say, or add, a reflection of how bad that feels. 'It feels like I hate you, that must feel terrible!' Something like that. You might not be able to, you might not be able to go take that next step to a reflection of the feeling that's underneath, the feeling that's not able to be expressed, which is you feel really terrible right now. But you can experiment with and you can use your attunement to your kid.    

Robyn: Now, if your kids in a 'Back Off' level Watchdog, be prepared for more Watchdog reactions,, something that sounds like shut up, or you're an idiot, or mocking you. Okay? So try to remember that all of this is simply information. Right? If you experiment with matching the energy, not the dysregulation, 'you think that I hate you,' and you get back something like 'shut up.' Or 'yeah, you stupid idiot. That's what I said.' Try to just continue to see that as more information about where they are on the Watchdog continuum, and I know this is so hard, y'all I know you're gonna be able to do this like 3% of the time and that fine. Okay, we're just we're gonna- we're keeping our bar low, remember? If that happens, it is very possible that the next best step is to match the energy silently. And the next best step might be to stop talking, to just be silent while also staying present and continuing to match the energy. We can hold intensity and presence in our bodies without saying anything, we can focus on all of our nonverbal cues. If you want to explore that a little bit further, you can go to chapter seven in Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors and specifically this 'Back Off' level Watchdog section. I give some vignettes and it attempts to kind of explore, how do we do this? How do we match the energy even if we don't say anything, and if you still need some support with this, consider coming to join us in the club because we can really kind of help to individualize some of these ideas and support you in implementing these ideas specifically.     

Robyn: When we're with a 'Back Off' level Watchdog, it's important to remember that there's very possibly no, quote-unquote, right thing to do. That sometimes the setup of the 'Back Off' level Watchdog is that nothing will ever be right. Like that's the setup. That's the experience that is deliberately being created. And nothing you do next will be the, quote-unquote, right thing and you're gonna just have to kind of wait it out. Just know that that's normal. That doesn't necessarily make it any easier. But I do you think in retrospect if you can remind yourself hey, I didn't do anything wrong because there was nothing that could have been right? Almost certainly if that's the setup, like if the setup is nothing is going to be right you can't get it right, right. If that's the setup, know that you're probably going to get kind of pulled onto the Watchdog or Possum pathway yourself. That's pretty normal. That's you just being human. Okay. So I'm really just trying to prepare you for the wide variety of experiences that could happen here.    

Robyn: So when we're thinking about matching the energy, but not the dysregulation, you might want to see, like, can you hear what their real problem is that's underneath and reflect that back. Right? And so if you say 'I'm sorry you can't go out with your friends tonight' and your kid, you know screams at you, 'you hate me. That's why you never let me do what I want.' Hear what's underneath that? What's underneath that is just so much disappointment that they can't go be with their friends, right? There's so much disappointment that they can't do what they want. Now the truth is y'all, that's a very normal human reaction, all of us are unhappy when we can't do what we want. We want to help co-regulate our kids so that their sensitized stress response system can eventually be a little less sensitive, so that when they're disappointed that they can't go do what they want, it doesn't escalate all the way to 'Back Off' or 'Attack' level Watchdog. Okay, so if disappointment is expressed as, 'I hate you, You never let me do what I want. And that's because you hate me.' Consider the possibility- see if it's possible for you to kind of lean in and co-regulate that, like don't get lost in the words, hear that as, 'I'm so disappointed, and I don't have any other way to express that.' Maybe consider expressing that back. 'You're so disappointed that you can't go out with your friends, I get it that makes perfect sense, of course, you're disappointed.' And see if you can stay focused again on the co-regulation and not on staying focused on the actual words that were said. Know that big words match some aspect of the feeling that they're having. So these are like, this is a way of your child communicating, I'm having such a big feeling. Robyn: These are the biggest words, I know how to express it. And you might work consider reflecting that back, 'you are feeling so bad, that you can't go out with your friends or the feeling of not being able to do what you want is huge. It feels awful, right?' Again, experiment with reflecting back what's really being expressed. Now again, your child might be way too dysregulated for any kind of reflection back to be helpful, it could be helpful for you to just kind of say those words in your own mind. Because that's going to help your Owl brain stick around, that's going to help you keep those x-ray vision goggles on, that's going to help keep you focused on what's really happening underneath.    

Robyn: Some of our kids use really big words like, 'I wish you'd never adopted me or you're not my real parents,' right? Those of you who are adoptive parents, and I get it y'all, I get that that is so painful, so painful to hear. And our kids deserve us to take care of our own pain on our own time. Right? That when our kids are expressing these kinds of intense, intense, intense feelings, our best way to respond is to shore up our psychological boundaries. Right? And hear what's underneath. Trying so hard not to, like shame, these words, trying so hard not to shut down. And again, as always, I'm going to remind you, sometimes you're going to, sometimes you're going to just have a perfectly human response. When your kid says something like, 'I wish you weren't my parents or you're not my real parents, or I wish you'd never adopted me or I wish, you know, I wasn't a part of this family.' Sometimes you're going to just have a normal human response and I get that, then the best thing for you to do is to be with yourself was so so so much compassion, so much compassion. So that the next time maybe you do have a little bit more regulation on board, maybe next time you can have a little bit stronger psychological boundary, so that instead of responding to the words that your child is saying, you can respond to the pain that's underneath. Right?    

Robyn: Think about this y'all, we all know how to hurt the people we love. And we all do this, like we all know the perfect way to just like, knife their heart, right? We know how to do this and sometimes we do do it and when we do it, it is because we feel very bad. So consider that, consider that the hurt that's being kind of inflicted upon you is a direct correlation to the amount of hurt that they feel on the inside. And I get that it's really hard not to respond. And we're just gonna keep trying, remember last week's episode, or two weeks ago, I guess it was two weeks ago, that we're just gonna keep trying to do just the tiniest bit better, just 1% better. Also, I really want to implore you, that if your kid is using this kind of language, that outside the moment pause and ask yourself, have we created in our family a safe space for our kids to talk about and reflect that and have all of their very varied feelings about whatever it is, right? Like, if you're an adoptive family, have I created a safe space for my kid to have all of their wide variety of feelings about being adopted, about what happened to them before they came to us? What happens in our family. Because, you know, your family is not perfect, my family's not perfect. All sorts of bad stuff happens in my family, our families aren't perfect, right? Do we have a safe space for our kids to reflect on all of these feelings, and be honest with ourselves, if we haven't created that space. And if we haven't created that space, we really want to try to do that.    

Robyn: If you are listening to this as an adoptive family, I want to refer you to adoptee voices. There's a podcast called Adoptees Dish by two of my good colleagues. There's another podcast called Adoptees On, y'all are listening to a podcast right now, go into your podcasts have been searching for your other podcasts, it's easy for you. So be sure you're getting adoptee voices about, you know, the big feelings that can come along with being adopted and that we're creating space for those feelings to be expressed. Because if we're not, they are going to come out and other kinds of ways. So here's what I want you to hear. And then we're gonna move on to talking about words like kill, I want to kill you, I want to kill me or words that are threatening, okay? Here's what I want you to hear, is when kids are using really, really big words, we want to try the absolute best possible way we can to stay regulated enough ourselves, to stay present, to match the intensity and to reflect back something that communicates 'I'm not afraid of your words, I'm not afraid of your feelings. I'm here to be with you and all of your big feelings, because clearly, these huge feelings are huge and overwhelming for you. And I'm the big person. And I'm going to do my very best to hold these big feelings.' That's what we want to communicate. We want to try really hard not to get lost in the actual words, though, again, after the fact we do want to reflect back on the actual words and see like, what am I missing here? Is my child's communicating to me things that are really important that I hear, right? In the moment, we want to just stay focused on there- my child's having a really big feeling. They're telling me they're having a really big feeling. I want to stay focused on that, co-regulate them through that because being alone with really big feelings is terrifying.    

Robyn: Okay, so let's look at, before we wrap up this episode, specifically, threatening words like kill, I want to kill you, I want to kill myself. I'm going to kill my sister. I'm going to kill my teacher. Okay. So number one, always, always, always, always take threatening words seriously. Always, always, always, always, always. Okay. And unfortunately, in a podcast, I cannot walk you through the steps to do that. My hope is that you can have a team or you can build a team of adults who know how to appropriately assess the severity or the intensity of these threats, always, always, always take threats of self- threats of- threatening to harm themselves or other people seriously. Okay. Now once that is done to the best of your ability, and you have assessed that there is little actual risk of violence towards self or others. And that risk is mostly ruled out. And you've done that with support and help of folks who know how to make these kinds of assessments. Okay? The next thing to do is to understand that these are very, very powerful words that are intending to express something intense, and powerful. It could be words that are intending to express something like, 'I need help, and I don't know how else to get help. Or I need help. And I don't know how else to get you to pay attention to the fact that I need help.' It could be words that are intended to express, 'I don't know how else to give words to how bad I feel.' Basically, it's like, I know that these are the biggest words I can think of, these words, make everybody freak out. These are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge words. And that hugeness matches how huge I feel. And I don't know what other words to use, okay? This child could also be attempting to express something like, 'at many points in my life, I have felt terrified and helpless, I have a lot of unexpressed fight energy in me. And it has got to come out.' And here's what's really important to remember, words aren't actions.       

Robyn: When we co-regulate the words and the feelings, we are not communicating that if these words turned into actions, that would be okay. That's not what we're communicating. In fact, using words instead of actions is a way that child is showing you they have some regulation on board. They have some pause. And that's an excellent thing. And we want to continue to really offer lots and lots of validation and presence and co-regulation. Because the more we build those regulation circuits, the less likely it is that the intensity of the aggression feeling inside is going to be expressed as actions. Okay? So what do we do? How are we respond? Again, always, always, always, in the moment, take them very, very seriously. Okay? Work on helping them find the real words to express what they're feeling and stay less focused on how they express. Okay? So we're not worried at a 'Back Off' level Watchdog activation about tone, we're not worried about being respectful. All we're worried about is co-regulation. And maybe can I help this child find a little bit more accurate words to express how bad they feel? And so I'm going to kill you, or I'm going to kill my sister. What's probably accurate underneath that, is something more like, 'I have a huge feeling. I need help with this feeling. I don't know what else to do.' And we might consider reflecting that back. 'That feeling is so huge. What a huge overwhelming feeling. You feel so mad at your sister, you feel so mad at me.' These are just options. I'm not saying they're great ones. There's just options to kind of put in your toolbox.    

Robyn: You could also consider talking about this with your child, depending on how old they are, in more Owl brain moments like, reflect back and say 'When you say things like, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to kill myself. What I'm hearing is you need a lot of help. And I wonder if we might try to actually say that. I need help or even I need to go to the hospital. I need you to take me to the hospital. I need help and I don't know what else to do. The feelings I'm feeling are so big. I feel like I'm gonna die.' Right? If we can help our kids get closer to expressing the real words. That's good for them. And that's good for us. Now if you have a child who's very regularly intense- you know, expressing that their feelings are so big that they feel so out of control, they have no idea how else to express them. This is a child who needs support. This is a child who needs mental health treatment, I realized it's way easier said than done y'all, I know so many of you are listening to this podcast, because you don't have access to the treatment that you need. And I really, really, really get that. And I also want to say, these are the words of a child who really need some, you know, intense mental health treatment. If you have mental health treatment with a child, make sure that you're making a plan with their provider, with their team, about how you're going to respond in the moment, what are the kinds of things you need to do to help create some safety in your home and in your family.    

Robyn: Now, if your child is saying these things to you and in your home, but they're not seeing them anywhere else, try to resist the terror, that they're going to say them somewhere else, okay, I get that they might. And if they do, you'll have to, you know, navigate the consequences of making scary threats outside your home. But if it's happening in your home, and it's not happening anywhere else, try try try not to get lost in the terror that they're gonna go somewhere else and say these things, or they're gonna go to school and say these things or, you know, they're gonna say them in places that it is going to have a really dire, severe, scary consequences, right? You can't go out into the world and tell people, you're going to kill them. And I totally get that. But if it's not happening out in the world, it's only happening in your family. Try to remember that what this is communicating to you is big, intense feelings that really need co-regulation. And the more you meet that, the more you match the energy, the more you provide the co-regulation, the more they are going to build those regulation circuits, the less likely it is that they are going to make scary threatening dangerous statements outside your home. So by co-regulating them, you're not giving the message, it's okay to say these things. That's not- remember, we're not- we're not about- this isn't about teaching things that are right or wrong. This is about co-regulating intensity, that is expressing to you in the moment, something is very wrong, and I need help. When you co-regulate in that intensity, you're building in a very, very, very important foundation, you are strengthening their stress response system so that it becomes less likely they have huge 'Back Off' and 'Attack' level watchdog moments at school, or out in places where yeah, there would be really dire consequences to make these kinds of threatening statements.    

Robyn: So I get that fear. I get that fear of they can't say these things out in the world. Yeah, you're not wrong. Depending on the age of your child, you might talk about that in more Owl brain moments. In actual Watchdog level moments, 'Back Off' level Watchdog moments, right? Co-regulation, co-regulation, match the intensity, right, keep everyone safe. Because that's building those regulatory circuits, that's strengthening that stress response system. That's going to make it actually less likely these episodes of intensity happen outside your home or your family.    

Robyn: All right y'all. I want all of us to like, take a collective breath together. I want us to even imagine that maybe somebody else is listening to this podcast at exactly the time you are they heard let's take a collective breath at the exact time you did, and we're all taking a collective breath actually, literally together. This is a brave episode to listen to you. This is a brave episode for me to record. And I decided we need to do hard things together. Right? We're going to be brave together. That, you know, part of what you asked me is that I show up and be brave with you. And so I wanted to do that today. And I wanted to demystify what happens- what can be happening next, or what's happening in your child when these intense words are coming out. I wanted you to know you're not alone. And I wanted you to know that I get it that it's really scary. It's really scary. And then I want you to remember back to that episode from two weeks ago. Of 1% Better is enough and know that navigating these types of situations with our kids is really hard. And we're not going to do it well, probably most of the time. But if we can practice doing it well, just 1% better, 1% of the time, 1% more. That's something y'all.    

Robyn: Really glad you tuned into today's episode. Really glad you tuned into this podcast, I'm so glad we can do this hard, hard, hard way of being in the world, I'm so glad we can do it together. And if you're listening to this episode, because you have a child who can escalate to this level of intensity. I want you to hear that thousands of people press play on my podcast- on my podcast every week. By the time this episode airs it's probably going to have reached a million downloads. Y'all. That's a lot of folks who get it, a lot of folks. You're not alone. And we're all doing the very best that we can to help create more spaces, more services, more adults who know how to help you and your family. And thank you, if you're listening as a professional, for tuning in. Thank you for bravely showing up, for being somebody in this world that is committing to helping these most vulnerable families and the families that need it the most.   

Robyn: As this episode comes to an end, I want you to think about what do you need to do next? Do you need to go move your body? Do you need to take some quiet moments? What was this episode like for you? How did it land in your body? And what do you need to do next? Do you need to scroll back to episodes on self-compassion? Do you want to go back to the episode on how parenting can be traumatic? What do you need next? After an episode like this? Alright y'all. Thank you for tuning in today. Thank you for what you do in the world to help kids and families. I will see you back here next week!