Sabotage and Being Set Up {EP 210}

Robyn: The vast majority of my professional experience when I worked as a therapist was with families of kids who had experienced complex trauma, attachment, trauma, developmental trauma, and I've spent most of my career speaking and training about kids with a history of trauma, which is why the podcast used to be called Parenting After Trauma. But in the last many years, more and more folks, more and more parents of kids with these really baffling behaviors, have been coming to the podcast or reading my book or finding me on social media and saying, Well, my kid doesn't have the kind of trauma history that you're talking about, but they have the kinds of behaviors that you're talking about. So I have expanded and talk not only about kids who have experienced attachment trauma, developmental trauma or complex trauma, but to talk about kids who have this vulnerability in their nervous systems, they seem to have big, big, big reactions to sometimes problems that we don't even know are problems. The reactions seem baffling and overwhelming and and out of out of what we would expect, right?    

Robyn: So regardless of what your child's history is and what has led their nervous system to this vulnerability, or maybe you have no idea what has contributed to your child's nervous system vulnerability. Maybe it seems like they've just always been like this. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We are so glad that you're here, if you don't know, over at RobynGobbel.com/podcast, I have a search bar. So if you're wondering, Oh, I wonder if she has an episode about lying or stealing or manipulation or people pleasing. You can go to my website, type into the search bar, and it will tell you exactly what I do have about that topic.    

Robyn: So feeling like our kids sabotage things, or, you know, set us up. What's that all about? It's a very, very common way to feel, that our kids are intentionally sabotaging something good, or they're purposefully setting us up to do something not good, right? It's parents will say things like, it's like they set me up to be mad or disappointed, or they set me up to have to say no, or they want to do something fun in the afternoon, but spend the whole morning creating so much chaos that we can't do that thing. So the first thing I want to say is you're not imagining this, the sense of feeling like they're intentionally sabotaging something or intentionally setting you up. You're not imagining that. But also, it's not necessarily super unique to our kids. All humans do this, and there is an explanation for why kids with vulnerable nervous systems seem like they do it more often, or seem like they do it more intensely or more intentionally. But it's important for us to kind of go back to actually all humans do this process of kind of setting people up to behave in the way that they expect them to behave.    

Robyn: So let's talk about the why, and then we'll wrap up with a few thoughts about what we can do. What can we do about it? So to really understand this phenomenon, of course, we have to get really brainy here. Okay? So. We're gonna dive into some neuroscience. The brain has essentially one major job, and that is to keep us alive. And the brain does this by working very hard to predict what's about to happen next so that we can respond to that thing that's going to happen next and stay alive. An individual named Antonio Damasio says that the brain is predominantly interested in predicting the future, and Dr Dan Siegel and memory science tells us that 80% of our experience is living out of memory. Now, again, Damasio and Siegel aren't talking about kids with vulnerable nervous systems or kids with a history of trauma. They're talking about humans and the brain is predominantly interested in predicting the future, and 80% of our experience is living out of memory. Our mind is predicting the next moment, and then, before the next moment even happens, we are, number one, responding to it, and number two behaving in a way that makes it more likely that our prediction ends up being true.    

Robyn: We do this regularly. We all do this, and most of us are doing this in very kind of small, not really noticeable kind of ways. For example, this is how conversation works in a relatively non-clunky way. The serve and return happens quickly in a conversation, because we are returning the serve before we ever even really get it. In many ways, we're returning the serve before it was even served. Think of all the times you've responded in a conversation to something that wasn't actually even said. I remember this one time I was leaving the Denver Airport rental car area, and I had to stop at, you know, the gate and the booth to show my ID, and the man at the gate was just chit chatting with me and asked me where I was going, and I told him where I was going, and he recommended a steak restaurant where I was going. And then he handed me back my driver's license, and he said, Have a safe drive to Nebraska. I said, Thanks, you too. And I drove away, right? Like, Thanks, you too. I mean, he told me to have a safe drive to Nebraska. And my response was, Thanks, you too, right? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that he was driving to Nebraska. I guess I don't know that he wasn't driving to Nebraska, right? But my reaction, my response, I had predicted what he was going to say before he said it, and then I was responding to it, so I assume that my brain predicted that he was going to say something like, have a great day, which is why I said, thanks you too, right?    

Robyn: These little missteps aren't a big deal at all, and mostly it's just kind of the price we pay for having conversations that don't feel like you're talking over, you know, voice over internet, right? You know how clunky VOIP is, right? It's so clunky there's like, these uncomfortably, oddly long pauses between you and the person you're talking to, right? Between like, when you say something and when they respond, and there's always this sense of almost confusion, like, oh, did they hear me? Do they not hear me? Are they responding? Are they mad at me? Right? Like, we have all these stories that we make up for the for that pause, and so having a brain that is anticipating the future, and really, in many ways, responding to that future before it ever even happens is a way we have fluid relational experiences. Okay, so that's an example of kind of just small, relatively inconsequential ways that this can come out. But this of course, happens in much, much bigger ways too. I mean, so we develop expectations for how relationships work based on all our relationship experiences in the past, since, like the moment we were born, maybe even before we were born, our experiences, our memories, help us predict what's about to happen next. Everything is memory. Everything is about memory.   

Robyn: This, of course, then impacts how we interpret experiences, how we make meaning out of them, right? I'm using all of my past experiences, because most of most of life is lived out of our past experiences and based on, you know, predicting what's about to happen next, right? So I can take all my past experiences and they are going to help me make those guesses about what's about to happen next. So for example, if I expect people to be critical, and I do, I am much, much, much more likely to interpret what they say as critical. I'm already hearing it. I am already responding to the perceived criticism well before the person has really even said anything, and sometimes well before means just like micro-moments before, because the brain is working so fast, we're interpreting reality based on the reality we expect, and We're responding to the reality we expect, as opposed to objective reality, but we also tend to behave in ways that make it more likely that the thing that we are expecting to happen next does happen next. We evoke what we think is going to happen. We set people up to fulfill our expectations.    

Robyn: Have you ever felt like your child expects you to be mean or harsh or frustrated, and then they actually are behaving in a way where it feels like those reactions are almost inevitable, like, of course, you're responding in a mean, harsh or frustrated way based on this behavior there, there may be, can be a sense of, I want to trust you, or I want to respond gently or reasonably, or, you know, something like that, but, but you're making it essentially impossible, right? It really is a setup. And I am not blaming or pathologizing people who do this. I'm certainly not blaming our kids who do this, because, actually, we all do this. We are all setting people up to behave in the way that we're expecting them to behave. For many of us with less significant trauma histories or more security in our attachment style, it might not be as noticeable, but we are still doing it, and I know for sure that I do this. We all set people up to do two things, to feel how we feel and respond to how we're anticipating they respond.    

Robyn: So we're going to talk mostly about this piece of you know, we set people up to respond how they're anticipating they respond. And then I think I'll come back in a different episode and talk about how we set people up to feel how we feel. So why do we do this? Why do we set people up so that they end up kind of behaving in the way that we anticipate they're going to behave. Well, there's probably a lot of reasons, but I'm gonna talk about two of them. Number one, it keeps life predictable. Hey, there's a sense of like congruency that feels good anticipating something and getting that thing feels better than not getting it, even if that thing's not very good. But it actually goes beyond that, because we're responding to people's behavior before their behavior has even started, right? So, so because of that, this is a little bit more than just kind of creating or manifesting some predictability. So for example, maybe you notice that your child expects you to say no to something. They asked to go to a friend's house or something like that, and before you even responded, they're reacting as if you've said no.    

Robyn: Then, of course, this is going to feel really personal. It's like, oh my gosh, you're not even letting me respond. Why do you always assume I'm gonna respond in a bad way or a negative way, in a terrible way? Or maybe it can feel like, if you knew I was gonna say no, then why did you even ask? It feels so personal, like they're purposefully creating situations to make you to the bad guy, or to create chaos or tension or dysregulation. But let me offer you this possibility. It's not personal. They are purposefully creating situations to create chaos or tension or dysregulation. That is true. True also, it is not personal. What it is about is their past experiences helping them predict what's about to happen next, including the past experience of how important it is to anticipate someone's reaction. There is some sense then of some safety and predictability. Even if it's not good, it was still predictable. And there can be a sense of Yes, I know how to handle this, even if I don't like it. So yes, our kids really are setting us up.    

Robyn: There is another reason, though, remember, I said there's two reasons that was. Number one, it keeps life predictable. But number two is that our kids are actually- and this is completely unconscious, but they are actually trying to give us an opportunity to respond in a new way. They want us to respond in a way that's unpredictable. They really do. I know it feels really contradictory, but they really, really, really do. And by respond in a new way, I don't mean give them what they want. That's not the new way that they're hoping for. I mean, they might think that's what they're hoping for, but that's not what their nervous system is hoping for. What their nervous system is hoping for is being with them in their dysregulation. That's what would be the new way for them. Now, I am not saying this to suggest that you never do that. That is not my point. What I saying is, if we stay focused on the fact that we're thinking mostly here about memory science, and we're thinking about all of these past experiences and how they are helping your child make a guess about what's about to happen next. And the best guess is, if I'm dysregulated, they're gonna be dysregulated too. But the hope is, if I'm dysregulated, maybe they'll respond with co-regulation, the new way that they're hoping for. Again, it's not giving them what they want or giving in to them, it's being with them in their dysregulation.   

Robyn: Our kids expect us to respond to their dysregulation with dysregulation. That's really mostly just how humans work. We ping off each other when someone gets dysregulated, the next person gets dysregulated, until we're all just a bunch of dysregulated people, right? That is being human. Nobody's doing anything wrong or bad there, right? So for some parents, I know when their kid is getting dysregulated, some parents shift into what I would call being kind of overly intrusive. They would do anything to make their child's dysregulation stop. There's this way that they kind of merge. Their dysregulation merges, and the caregiver can have this sense very unconsciously, of course, of like, I need to do anything to get my dysregulation to stop, and that'll stop their dysregulation. I can't tolerate this, so they just do anything to get their child's dysregulation to stop, which could be something like giving into them giving the child more help than they truly actually need something like that.    

Robyn: Some parents respond in a way that can feel almost like the opposite of that. You know, they they maybe don't acknowledge or give any empathy to the dysregulation. So instead of becoming like, overly like, oh my gosh, you're just regulated. Let me do anything to fix it. There's this sense of, I don't hardly even notice that you're dysregulated. And if I do notice, I'm not giving you a whole lot of compassion or empathy for it. And this might not look overtly mean by any means, although it might, you know, but we might have a caregiver that could walk away. They maybe have walked away because they don't even see how dysregulated their child is. You know, they're not necessarily doing it to be ignoring or harsh, but it's a sense of, I don't really even notice this dysregulation or this thing that happened, it shouldn't even be upsetting you. And then, instead of doing something or anything to actively stop it, like the previous example I gave, that the caregiver does something to avoid it instead, you see kind of the difference there something to stop it versus something to avoid it, you know. So those are two different kind of responses that can happen to kids withdysregulation. And then, of course, some parents get extremely dysregulated in response to their kids dysregulation.    

Robyn: Now if you're new here, you might not know me well enough to know that when I talk about parents who are struggling, never talking about it with criticism or judgment or shame, I take what we talk about here on The Baffling Behavior Show the idea that all behavior makes sense. Regulated connected kids who feel safe, do well. I take all of that and I'm applying it to all humans, including parents. So when I talk about some kind of behavioral adaptations that parents are making in response to their kids dysregulation, or that parents themselves are getting really dysregulated and sometimes even behaving in ways that they regret, this is not shaming or blaming. This is just simply kind of talking about reality, honestly. Okay, so indeed, of course, some parents get extremely dysregulated in response to their kids dysregulation, and kids who have experienced complex trauma, abuse, neglect, toxic stress in that caregiver relationship, especially, they expect caregivers to get very dysregulated when they are dysregulated, they expect dysregulated adults to hurt them.    

Robyn: All kids, all humans, hope that their dysregulation will be met with safety, connection and co-regulation. Dr. Dan Siegel, Dr. Tina Payne Bryson have articulated these core needs that kids are hoping for to be safe, seen, soothed, and secure. Some of the time though, of course, don't worry. We humans definitely don't expect that all of the time. We don't need it all the time. And really, truly, it would be bad if it did happen all of the time. That's why there's so much power in the rupture-repair, kind of, reconnect process. And I do have an episode about rupture repair. I'll link to it down in the show notes. All of us long to be seen, to have someone be with us in our hardest moments. That's the hope. But we also all have developed expectations based on our past experiences of how our distress will be met and welcomed or not, and specifically how that distress will be met or welcomed by the folks who are caring for us, and we not only respond to that expectation before it even happens, we actually do things to make it more likely that that reaction will happen. And it's not because we're terrible or manipulative or we don't really even want to feel better. It's actually the opposite.    

Robyn: It's actually all about hope. It's all about creating an opportunity. Dysregulated kids expect their caregivers to be dysregulated in many ways. They provoke dysregulation in their caregiver, what they are doing is creating an opportunity for a new experience. They hope that their dysregulation will be met with co-regulation. All humans hope that they expect that it won't be. But because of the hope, they really set you up to be dysregulated, hoping that something different will happen. This is actually our very natural core drive for healing. All humans have this. Memory reconsolidation theory says that the brain heals when there is a mismatch between what we're expecting and what happens. There is this desperate longing of please, please, please create a mismatch. Please respond differently. Please do that even though I'm trying with all my might to get you to respond in the way that I'm predicting you will. Now let me reiterate that this does not make yourself bad or manipulative or devious or controlling. This actually makes them normal and also actually full of hope.    

Robyn: We all do this. It's just that folks with a history of intense dysregulation and vulnerability probably do it more intensely and in more really obvious ways. There is 100% a reality to the sabotage, you are being set up. Our kids are behaving in ways so that what they expect is what happens. So don't want you to ever feel almost like gaslit by professionals who are saying it's not manipulative, it's not controlling. It is those things. The thing, though, is that we're not going to stop there. We're not going to just say it was it's manipulative. We're going to label it, it's manipulative. It's going to be a neutral label, and then we're gonna go, but why? Okay, so what do we do about this? What do we do about this way that our kids are are setting us up. What we do is both extremely hard and extremely simple. We respond with how our kids hope we will respond, not how they expect. And the hope is to have the dysregulation seen and soothed. The hope is to have somebody be with them and their dysregulation. The hope is not necessarily to give in. Might seem like that's your kid's hope, but it's not. The nervous system is hoping please be with me in this chaos, because it's scary.    

Robyn: Okay, so how do you do that? How do you respond with the way our kids are hoping we will respond, instead of how they are expecting us to respond, which is with more dysregulation. Well, number one, you have to notice your own dysregulation. Notice your desire that arises to do anything to stop your own dysregulation. You're going to have a moment of being dysregulated. When your child is dysregulated, there is going to be a moment of matching, okay, we're not gonna avoid that. So notice it. Notice your desire to do anything to stop it, so avoid it. All of that's fueled actually by your own dysregulation. Of course, it is mine too. Notice how your nervous system flies into protection mode and wants to respond with its own really intense dysregulation. Notice it, acknowledge it. Don't deny it. Don't shame yourself for it. Notice and acknowledge and then give yourself a little self compassion for how extremely hard it is to notice and acknowledge. It would be so much easier to just let your Owl brain fly totally away and have a huge Watchdog or Possum reaction.    

Robyn: Your brain is doing exactly what your kid's brain is doing. It's responding to things before they're even fully happening. It's expecting the next thing to be terrible, and responding to that in some ways, it's even ensuring that the next moment is terrible, and that's not anymore your fault, then this kind of setup is your kid's fault. You are perfectly human. However, it does, unfortunately remain the responsibility of the more regulated person in the relationship, and that's technically us to be the one who tries to step out of this pattern. I know we feel as dysregulated as our kids do, but unfortunately, just the age difference, the power difference, the cognitive differences, means that it is our job to be the ones who disrupt the cycle. So notice, acknowledge health, selfcompassion. Take a breath and see if you can stay regulated, not calm. Regulated. Can you respond with something that will leave your child feeling safe or seen or soothed, match the energy or validate the emotion, even if it's really irrational, maybe even try to do nothing.   

Robyn: And I have episodes about being regulated, not calm, and matching the energy, so I'll make sure. I'll put those in the show notes. Of course, of course, of course. If you're in danger, you've got to do something. Respond to it. Okay, don't think about me or think about what you should do. Just do something. But if you're not in physical danger, see if you can get really curious about what has led up to this sabotage. How is your child setting you up using our x ray vision to see our kids more clearly? Doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the times that we're being set up or controlled or manipulated. We see those behaviors clearly. But again, we don't stop there. We keep asking, but why? Why is this happening? Why is this happening now, and how can I respond in a way that my child might experience a mismatch, the opposite of what they were expecting? So chapter 12 in Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors is all about this idea of notice, acknowledge self compassion and then ground hold on to your Owl brain.    

Robyn: That's a great next step if you're like, okay, okay, how do I do this? Like, how could I even begin to offer or respond to my child in a different way? Because I am also so dysregulated. Rising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors is a great place to start. Section three is essentially all about that, with lots and lots of very like clearly laid out steps to take if you need or want some support and how to implement some of these ideas, or if you need a space that could help you grow your own window of tolerance. You might consider coming to join us over in the club, because we have this huge resource library and includes resources that can help you remember, to notice, acknowledge, give yourself compassion and hold on to your owl brain. We have a super huge video library that addresses so many topics and questions, and of course, we have this really vibrant community, right? This community is full of in the trenches, parents who have been there, done that, as well as of course, me and my team.    

Robyn: Another thing you can do is subscribe to The Baffling Behavior Show. So you always know when a new episode is released. Come and follow me on Facebook and Instagram and head to my website and be sure to sign up for my emails, because you can keep getting all of this free and very regular support in parenting a child with a vulnerable nervous system and big, baffling behaviors. Remember, I told you at the beginning of the show. If there's a topic you're looking for, go to RobynGobbel.com/podcast, and use the search bar. It'll give you the episode number of podcasts I have that relate to that topic. Then you can come back here to your podcast app and search for those episodes. Y'all as always, it has been my privilege and honor to be with you again today, and I look very much forward to being with you again next week. Bye, bye!