Polyvagal Theory as a Path to Hope: Regulation, Repair, and Connection with guest Deb Dana {EP 233}

Robyn: I've done my studying of relational neuroscience and nervous system science and polyvagal theory with other professionals, particularly Bonnie Badenoch. So I've not had the opportunity to get to know Deb very well, but I did have the great fortune to meet her just this past January, when she came here to where I live, in Grand Rapids, and offered a conference. It was so awesome to have her here in my community, impacting folks who live right here where I live, and I was just delighted to be able to follow up with her, invite her on the podcast and now introduce her to you. Deb and I are going to talk about the science of safety, nervous system, neuroception cues of safety, cues of danger, all that really good stuff. And then we'll dive a little more specifically into things like repair in relationships and why that's so important, and resilience and what that even is, and how crucial connection is for the nervous system, even online connections. Deb's work has had a huge impact on me, but also on my colleagues and my community, and really, then ultimately, everyone who has read Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors, or who listens to this podcast, or who is in the club or in the immersion program, or frankly, has been touched by me or my work in any way. So without any further delay, it is my great honor and delight to introduce you to Deb Dana, LCSW.     

Robyn: Deb, I am just so grateful you said yes to connecting with me, especially first thing Monday morning. What a wonderful, wonderful way to kick off this week. So thank you for being here with me.  

Deb Dana: I'm happy to be here. And yes, I hadn't thought about it was first thing Monday morning until Monday morning arrived. Okay, what a lovely way to get started.     

Robyn: Well, I know that probably a lot of folks listening are familiar with you and your work, but I also know a lot of folks listening probably aren't, so I'd love to just hear you share a little bit about yourself and just kind of whatever emerges and feels good to share with the folks listening.     

Deb: Yeah, well, I will say I just came back from teaching a week at the Cape Cod Institute, and my daughter, one of my daughters, my oldest daughter, and her 16 year old son, and then my 11 year old granddaughter, who lives outside Chicago, came with me, and so I have been surrounded by family, and it's been a delight and a stretch at times, as as as we have lots of different energies and ways of being together, and so it feels appropriate to be talking about nervous systems and how we either find our way to connection or have these ruptures that happen all the time. And then how do we make a repair again? Because that's been my a. Been my life for the past eight days. It's that, that flow of connection, feeling easy, feeling we're going in the same direction, and all of a sudden there's a there's a interruption to that, and we got to find our way back again. So I'm happy to talk about that, because, you know, if we talk for a moment about polyvagal theory, which is my area of expertise, which you know, otherwise known as the nervous system, and how the nervous system shows us, you know, how we're moving through life. It's directing traffic for us, micro moment to micro moment. And when I discovered Steve Porges' work, oh, Lord, it's been, oh, over a decade now, and it was back in the days when you could call somebody up on the phone and they'd answer the phone and have a conversation, if anybody remembers those days, it was lovely. And so I called him up, I had read his first book, and I called him up, and I said, I am so fascinated by this. Would you come to Maine and do a workshop for my colleagues? And he said yes. He said, I'd love to. And  he and his wife, Sue. Sue Parker came, and if you don't know Sue, Sue is also a scientist and an academic, and she discovered the role of oxytocin in relational pair bonding. So the two of them are this fascinating couple, right?   

Deb: Can you imagine their breakfast conversations So, so he came, and that was that that was a life changing moment for me. Because, you know, for me, the theory is, is, yes, it's a clinical way to, you know, do work with trauma survivors, but it's a way of living, and it informs how I move through the world. It informs every interaction I have. And so whether it's with my, you know, my colleagues, my family, my friends, people I you know, meet passing by in the day, because nervous systems are always talking to each other, and we're always either sending a welcome,  come connect, I'm safe, I'm regulated, or a warning, better stay away, because I'm not having my best moment. Right? So that's, that's why I think, for me, understanding the nervous system has been so powerful because it it changed the way I lived my life. Yeah?  

Robyn: Yeah. I mean, I was introduced mostly to polyvagal theory from Bonnie Badenoch, who I've studied with super intimately over the last decade or so. And so, what a wonderful person. Also to be introduced to polyvagel, because it was so embodied. It was so embodied, and yes, without question. Like, I don't know what my life would be like if I hadn't been able to find something to help me make sense, not only of, I mean, like, maybe you too, like, I thought I was looking for, like a clinical theory, like, make sense of what was happening in the room, because that was pretty bonkers at times. But really it ended up making helping me make sense of of myself, right, which is, of course, what I was searching for all along without maybe totally realizing.   

Deb: It's interesting, because people who come to my trainings, therapists who come to my trainings, are usually looking for, what do I how do I work with my clients? Yes, and I say, Oh, you may be in the wrong place, because you have to learn how to work with your own system. That is where it all begins. And so we spend our time befriending our own nervous systems. Because only when I can do that can I then work with someone else. So you know, if you think about the relationships we have, we I say now that we all are responsible for our own nervous systems, because I am either going to be a co-regulator, which is my hope and a restorative resource, or I'm going to be a threat to the other nervous system and a co-dysregulator, because through that beautiful, you know, term that that Steve termed, neuroception, but the way nervous systems share information, not not through our thinking brain, but from a body to body, nervous system to nervous system connection. I am always letting you know if I'm regulated or if I'm dysregulated in and it can be well regulated or enough regulated for the moment. It can be slightly dysregulated. It could be very dysregulated. There's a whole continuum along that we move along and through, not through my conscious awareness, but through this neuroceptive experience I'm letting you know where I am, and your system's receiving that message. And. So if I'm, you know, as therapist, it's my job to be regulated, right? That's the responsibility I take on when I enter into a session with a client. I like to think in in our human beingness, we are responsible for being regulated. And I also want to say that the science tells us no one is regulated all the time. It's unachievable. No one can do it. We do our best. We do our best, and when those ruptures happen, we find our way to come back to regulation, however, that is, there are lots of different ways. And then when we come back to regulation, we can see if, can we make a repair? Right? Can I come back and say, Wow, I was really out of balance there, and I want to take a moment and just let you know I'm sorry. And what do you need to feel connected again, right?     

Deb: You know, if you work with parents, and so parents and kids, the beautiful thing about this is that it's not the dysregulation that that makes that makes a problem. It's the dysregulation the rupture without repair, right? It's not the rupture, it's the without repair. So, you know, and electronics work says that 33% of the time we're actually in that tuned place. And so I would ask my parents, my couples, the people I worked with, do you think one out of three times you can be attuned? And they'd say, Well, I can do that. Yeah, that I can one out of three? I think I can do that. I said, Great. All you need to do is recognize the other two thirds of the time and be willing to make a repair. That's it, and if we do that, you know, Ed's work says we build secure attachment. Our kids find their way to safety and connection and security and blossom in the way we want them to with one out of three times.   

Robyn: That feels very hopeful to me. Exactly hopeful. I mean, I was with Dr. Porges, so I don't know, like a year and a half ago, and I have such a clear memory of him saying to the audience, like, polyvagal theory is a theory of hope, right? And, yes, yes. I think people get so overwhelmed. The science is overwhelming and and I think in some ways, folks can can fall into kind of what you somewhat just alluded to, which is this sense of like, oh, I should be regulated all the time and and I'm not. And it can feel again overwhelming, and I think if we pause and remember exactly that, but like no at its core, actually a theory of hope.  

Deb: I love that theory. Yeah? So, oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, when you said I should be, whenever we hear ourselves saying, we're dysregulated, yeah, we're in that fight flight. Just have to driven place. So for everybody listening, when you hear yourself saying should, take them wait a minute.  

Robyn: So something that you said, that I want to touch on really briefly is this repair piece, because also talk about that so much, the importance of repair again, I think that's the hope place, and I know in my personal life in particular, you know, really just having to lean into the practice of repair. I know that a lot of parents that I work with are, you know, they're parenting kids with such dysregulation in their nervous system, such disorganization. You know, a lot of these kids have had very dangerous attachment experiences, and it can feel like to the parents that a repair is impossible and that their child won't receive the repair. So I talk a lot about how all we can do is make the offering we cannot control, you know, if it's received or not. But I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that, because I know that that's something that's huge for most of my listeners.  

Deb: Yeah, yeah. I love that. You say you can make the offer, right? And we cannot make an offer of repair until we find our way back to regulation. You can't prepare from a dysregulated place, so when we find our way back to regulation, to that place, we call ventral in the polyvagal language, I say ventral energy is very powerful, right? And just being regulated and being sending that energy and information to my very dysregulated child, their nervous system feels that they sense something, and even if they are too dysregulated to take in my words, to take in in my actions, their nervous system feels the energy of regulation and it may not. Not interrupt what's going on in the moment, but on a biological level, I call that a disconfirming autonomic experience, because their nervous system is expecting someone to be angry, to be harsh, to send them away, to ignore them, to leave themselves, and when we don't do that, we're on a nervous system level demonstrating something important to their biology. It's a biological connection. So in the beginning, it may simply be, you know, you may not notice a lot of but underneath, powerful things are happening. And I think we can remember that. It helps us stay hopeful. You know, not not go through that nothing's ever going to work place, and then from that place, you know, there are lots of different ways to offer repair, right and and one way may work in this moment and not in the next. One way may work for one person and not the other. So it's sort of a game of experimenting until you find out what you know feels like it might find a way to land just a little bit. And again, I'm just looking for a little bit.     

Deb: So the other thing that we can do is when we're not needing a repair. When we're in a moment of connection, we can be curious about, Okay, the next time this thing happens, because it will happen again. Right next time it happens, let's play around with what are some of the options that we should try and see whether it brings us back into regulation and connection. That's really when we want to be playing with it and and adding a bit of playfulness to it, I think is is helpful too. Like, would you want me to stand on my head and smile at you? Or would you want me to, you know, give you a great big hug? Or, do you want me to stand 10 feet away and and send a verbal message? There are all sorts of different ways, right? And, and, you know, part of that plan is to help the person on the receiving end check in with their nervous system. So they gotta get to know, well, I don't know. Let me see. Let's role play it out and see what happens, right? So it's both ends. It's both in the, how am I going to offer and for the person receiving? What does it feel like? Because they're often very disconnected from that language that that knowing, that way of of connecting.   

Robyn: Sopmething you said just now that I think is so important for parents of especially highly dysregulated kids to notice is that even if they don't have an answer, or even if they actively reject participating in that conversation, or even if you know no way, shape or form, will they actually do that thing, like the curiosity that's expressed in that moment from the caregiver also is a disconfirming experience, and the curiosity sending this message of, I see you. I see you're a separate person than me. I'm curious. I want to get to know the parts of you that are hard to you know, see on the outside, like that, in and of itself, even if it doesn't change behavior yet, is so profound. And then I think it is polyvagal theory that helps us understand the truth of that and not fall into hopelessness.   

Speaker 1  18:31

Yeah. And you know, even, even if this is a tiny moment when you see a bit of curiosity, that's regulation. Curiosity comes from a regulated place. You can't be curious if you're dysregulated. And we're looking for the micro moments. That's how the nervous system shifts, not by having this beautiful, you know, you know, hour long experience of connection. That might be lovely if you can ever get it. I'm not sure we you know, but the micro moments are where this happen. They happen over and over and over. And we're looking for a tiny shift. We're not looking for if we talk about a kid, we're not looking for a kid to to become regulated, and, you know, not and that behavior goes away. We're looking for a nuance of change. It's less intense. Doesn't happen as often. It doesn't last as long. That's what we're looking for. That's a nervous system that's reorganizing.    

Robyn: Let's talk a little about the parent who is stuck, well, feels like stuck and is maybe actually stuck. Like, when you're parenting, you don't get to say, like, you know, I'm going to set a boundary in this relationship, and we're just, we're going to end it like it's not an option. So there can be this feeling of stuckness. And then, you know, so many parents, of course, bring in their own histories that were also traumatic, you know. So that's all you know. Getting activated and whatnot. But when there's this reality of of I'm living in a household with somebody who's chronically dysregulated, so I'm chronically neuroceving cues of danger from this person's nervous system. Even though I'm a big grown up, right? It's still true, yeah, and I know so many parents can feel a little bit hopeless, then when they're hearing like, well, actually, one of the most important things is tending to your own nervous system. But I also just told you that part of how we feel safe is the nervous system of someone else. And you live with somebody who chronically distracted, you know, it can start to feel like, again, like, trapped, yeah. And so can we speak to that for the parents who really are living like they can't control the business regulation they they're living in. So now what?  

Deb: Well, yea, now what is the is the question, and you're right, we often live in a very messy, activating environment with other nervous systems that activate our system? Yes, so we start here and just acknowledging that that does happen. And there's this interesting equation that I use. There are cues of safety and cues of danger, and when the cues of danger outweigh the cues of safety, we move into dysregulations. You can't not do that. Yeah, so you look around your your your world and and you're identifying the cues of danger, or strong, the cues of safety, or are not as present, you're going to be dysregulated. So we have to find, first of all, what are some cues of safety we might bring in, right? Which might be, it could be environmental. It could be a, you know, a potted plant that you love. It could be found in music. It could be a, you paint a wall a certain color. There are all sorts of ways, simple ways that we can have environmental cues of safety, along with all the environmental cues of danger that we have. And then there's the, you know, we talked about connecting with another being, another mammal, right? Which could be your dog, your cat, your horse. It could be the, you know, a neighbor you wave to. It could be, you know, a friend that you have a tiny message with. Again, little things are good. And then there's the that internal pathway, that embodied pathway, right? Which sometimes can be the hardest, because we neglect our own, we forget, we live in a body until, until it yells and says, Wait a minute. You've you've forgotten me, and now I'm going to make you pay for it, because you haven't listened, right? So, you know, but we can do the little things like, you know, I start my day with a I have. I enjoy making my coffee. It's the same.  

Robyn: My go to example as well.  

Deb: Yes. So it could be these little things. Maybe you love ice in your water. Maybe you love, you know, the taste of lemon is some little things that you can manage in the midst of chaos, right? So that's bringing in some cues of safety. And then the other side is, how might we even reduce just a bit some of the cues of danger, right? Which, you know, sometimes it's a practical thing that we look at like it's arranging a space so that so much stuff around that can be a cue of danger, that there are political things we can do. And then, you know, between the between you and the people around you, you know, can we find the tiny moments of okayness, right? We our system takes in the the danger, the difficulty, the distress, really easily. We're wired that way, right? We're wired to pay attention to that because we need to to survive. And can we find the tiny moments of okayness and make a practice of just noticing them for ourselves? Maybe noticing them out loud, you know, but, but marking them in some way, because every time we do that, you know you may not see me, but I just put my hand on my heart when I said, a tiny moment of volcanoes, one of the ways that I bring it in. As I put my hand on my heart, I go, Oh, yeah, that was just a tiny moment of okayness, yeah. So those are some of the suggestions we're looking for, little suggestions, because what we're looking for is something that feels within reach. Can I do this in this, you know, in this crazy place that I'm living with a lot of nervous systems that that struggle to find safety and connection and regulation? You know, is this within reach, which is why, that's why I created glimmers. It's why we do a savoring practice, because they just take a few seconds and they're within reach of most of us on on most days.  

Robyn: I think that part of believing that they're within reach is so powerful. Yeah, yeah, that they're there, yeah? And we don't need to do something new. That's why I love also to, like, give the coffee examples. Like, listen, I'm going to make my cup of coffee every day, whether I pay attention and notice it or not. I'm not adding something or creating more stress. Yeah, right. What if I just pause.  

Deb: I mean, I'm lucky. I live in a in a place where, if I look out the window, I see the beauty of nature. And so I do that often. I just take a moment look out the window and say, Oh, it's green, or it's windy, or there's a bird, or, you know, whatever it is. So if you, if the environment outside your structure that you spend most of the time in, whether that's work or home or wherever it is, you know, offers some of that look out the window. Just take a moment look out the window. Yeah, yeah. If you live in a place where you can't look out the window and see beauty of nature. The science tells us, which I love is that a favorite picture of nature does the same thing for you, which I find lovely, right?  

Robyn: I've noticed this about your background, where you're sitting right now is what feels to me, clearly self selected glimmers, cues of safety, which I also have, and I definitely had in my office when I was seeing clients, because sometimes you need a lot of help feeling regulated when you're working with highly dysregulated clients. And so I also very strategically, and some of them were just beautiful, and then some were places that mattered to me, right? Yes, yes. I was kind of noticing that in your background. And then, and I think it says Cape Cod right on the ones back there.  

Deb: You know, for me, I'm an ocean, yeah. So my memories of ocean, my memories of, you know, I have beach stones that I pick up when I go places and spread all around my house, and they're easy for me to hold on to the color that the color of the sea is a color. So, you know, the simple things that we we don't pay much attention to, and yet our nervous system pays a lot of attention to, yes, you know, and so I find, again, simple, maybe not so easy, but the simple things that we can do will nourish our nervous system. And as we nourish our system, we have more capacity to anchor in that place of regulation, and then offer that to the people in the world around us. Right? For your parents, you're offering that to to their kids who you know as we if we look at the dysregulation, those little nervous systems, or even the big nervous systems, are longing to be regulated. That is the goal of the nervous system, and it simply doesn't know how to get there yet. And so if we can, and I also think that the nervous system inherently knows that pathway, if we open up the pathway, it will help us, you know, find that way. But if we look across at someone, and instead of the language that we all use, I'm going to say all of us use. We look at someone and go, Oh, my God, what? What are they doing? They could, they could stop this if they wanted to. They just want to annoy me just doing that, because no, it's going to, you know, drive me crazy. And we do this is our brain making a story about what's going on. And if we could just look at that other human, little, big, old, young, whatever it is, look at that other and go, Oh, dysregulated.     

Deb: Because when they are dysregulated, they are biologically unable to do what we want them to do, biological not that they don't want to. They are biologically unable to connect, to calm down, to smile, to to regulate, because their nervous system feels it is under threat for whatever. And I'm not threatening. I am intending to be caring and loving. That nervous system is neurocepting danger and has taken them to dysregulation. And I think it's hard to do, and I sometimes have to take a step back and go, Wait a minute. Let me, let me rephrase that. Let me have a different story in my brain. Let me have the biological story. Then I can come back. And I don't know why. I don't know what the cues of danger are, and in this moment, we're not going to figure that out, right? But I can look at them with kindness, with compassion, with love, with care, and even just doing that sends a different message to the nervous system, right? And if you've looked at cues of danger with with this other being, you may know. Oh, I get one of the cues of danger is lot a lot of lot of people just regulate there's a hypersensitivity, too much movement, too much action, too much sound, right? Oh, I that's something I can begin to change and see what happens, right? So if there are environmental things that I know are distressing for that nervous system. I can step in and I can begin to rearrange things and see what happens.  

Robyn: Yes, I think what I'm hearing you say is this kind of dual practice of noticing for yourself. Where could we where do we notice? Cues of safety, cues of danger. What can we increase? What could we decrease? And then also noticing without judgment, how that could be happening for our kids too, like we don't have to take responsibility necessarily or blame. It's not about blame. It's just about it's it's neutral, which I try not to say to the parents I work with too often because they're like, Oh, nothing about this situation is neutral. And I do really get that, but there's not a it's not a moral statement. You know, if there's something you're doing, or the tone of your voice or words you're using, or you know, that have become cues of danger to that child, because they're also drawing from years of memories and all that kind of good stuff. So if we can notice for ourselves and then get curious about our kids, where could we increase cues of safety for them? Where might we be able to decrease right cues of danger for them?  

Deb: Yeah, I was noticing. I was noticing a interaction between my granddaughter and her dad, and she, when she came back to enough, you know, regulation was able to say, you were yelling at me, yeah. And he replied, I wasn't. And it's so interesting, because it doesn't matter her little nervous system, you know, neuroceptive danger, and her brain made that you were yelling right. And really when, when we're working with the dysregulated kiddo, we got to go where their nervous system has taken them, right? And then later I can be curious and say, What was it about my tone of voice that felt like I was yelling to you. Maybe it was a certain word, maybe it was a tone, maybe it was the energy behind it, maybe it was the strength of it, right and and maybe, just maybe I was a little dysregulated and you got it right, right? You named it yelling, which is your word, but maybe I was dysregulated and there was an edge to it which your criticism is incredibly, exquisitely sensitive to, right? But in that moment, what I the advice I give to the one who, who is supposed to be, the the more grown up, one, whichever that is, the older kid, the whatever that is, Do not argue with that nervous system. You can't win. Absolutely can't win. You need to find a way to take a step back and go, Okay, I hear that gonna I don't agree. I can say in my brain, I don't agree with it, but I'm curious about it, because that nervous system that that's what happened for that nervous system. So, yeah, yeah. But I was just so curious. You were yelling, I wasn't, Oh, my God, we need to, let's stop.  

Robyn: Oh. And I just relate to that so much, that whole don't argue thing, because it is hard to have somebody essentially what feels like accuse you of doing something mean or unkind or, you know, and especially for me, I can be easily overwhelmed by the feeling of being like, unseen, yes, and so to be kind of accused of something, and then to be like, that's not what I meant at all. That like just brings up so much for me, and I can easily jump to like, Oh, you're wrong. That's not what's happening at all. And now it's like, we are off to the races. Off to the races.  

Deb: you know, but in my example with my granddaughter, and went up as you were, just the other thing that can happen is there going to be something that feels like an accusation, and I can feel misunderstood, or, you know, not, love, and I can go to that place of collapse, right? Appear I fail totally, because my system says you are in such danger now just becoming visible, right? So that happens too, which, again, May, May tone the intensity down a bit, but it, but it disconnects totally right? So not a safer choice for either nervous system. And again, it's not a it's not a cognitive choice. It's a nervous system saying this is, this is what needs to happen so, but I did want to recognize that one, because we see that too. Yeah, we see that on both ends. We see the kiddo who feels under threat and collapses, collapse gets, gets totally silent, gets and it's interesting, because in schools, when I was working with with families, and we'd get, you know, talk reports from schools. And schools would would talk about one of the kids saying, totally disruptive, you know, need, need, you know, behavioral intervention in that, where we always go, behavior which, no, but the sibling would say, and sibling is totally quiet and and always just gets along well, many, many times. Yes, the the first one was sympathetically, fight, flight, dysregulated, the other one was in that state of collapse. So it just looked different. It's easier to be around because there's not all this energy coming at you, but it's like that person wasn't even there. That little kid was like, I'm gone, right? So we want to be really curious about what is, what is it look like, sound like, feel like, when you're actually here, right? And then we can know the the differences of those other two survival states. But you know, compliant is not, not what we're looking for, either we want to be truly here, right?  

Robyn: I'm just noticing having just so much compassion for this caregiver, and I'm a parent too and a partner, and you know that we're trying so hard to offer co-regulation to our kids or our whoever we're showing up for in relationship. And you know, sometimes there can be this sense of like, well, who's doing that for me, and I know a lot of listeners, they don't have as much co-regulating nourishment from other humans in their life than they really, really deserve to have, and that would help them, you know, continue to be able to show up for their kids in the way they clearly want to, if they're listening to this podcast. And so I, yeah, I just as you were talking, just had such a moment of compassion for those folks.  

Deb: And I like what you said, clearly deserve and also need. There's a biological need, yes, for an action. We call it a biological imperative in the literature. It's something you have to have in order to really thrive, right? And it may just be one other human, or it may be a group, or maybe, you know, a large group. Every one of us has its own place on that. I only need one or two other people in my life that I can feel, that I can connect with, but I need to be able to count on them. So, it's that predictability So, and that's really hard to find many, many, many people in the world don't have that. And I agree. I'm having, you know, my heart aches for that, and how do we begin to find that? So, what do we do? And, you know, I think online communities have opened this up in ways we had no idea would happen. I think, you know, in some places, spiritual communities, but I think parenting groups, I think, you know, neighborhood groups, it's interesting to see. There's no end to the places you may find that one other human who you feel, ooh, we, you know, when we think we have that sense of who I want to get to know, that person I'd like to spend a little time. That's your nervous system, feeling welcome, feeling those cues of safety, you know? So whenever we feel that, we think, Oh, what is it about this connection? What are the qualities of this connection that bring that alive in me? Because then I know what I'm looking for in other places.     

Deb: So it's nice to be able to identify, well, I like that person's sense of humor. I like, you know, there's an ease I like that they don't have. They don't feel as though they're telling me their opinion all the time. They're all sort of, I'm talking my system, as you might know, right? But, but there's these things I know about my system, and so when I run into people, I can, I go down that list and I think, oh, yeah, that's there, that's there, that's doesn't all have to be there, but it has to be there so that there has to be an ease to it. Because you're right. We talked about reciprocity, which is the back and forth flow in a relationship. I worked with couples a lot, but it's the same with parents and kids, that it can lean in one direction for a long time, and the person who's offering all the time would often say the partner, and the couple would often say, why is always me, yeah. And, you know, sort of tongue in cheek, but not really. And they were too grown up, so it was easier, but I'd say because your system is more able to do it right now. Yeah, right. That's why, you know, yes, I get that we would like your partner to rise to the occasion and offer. At the moment, they're biologically unable to do that, and when they are, they will, I know, because they're going to want to offer they can't something they don't want to. It's not that they're unwilling. They're unable right now. And when we look at parents and kids, parents take on a lot of responsibility for helping their their kids grow and develop and come into the place where they can then take a little more individual responsibility, and, you know, show up and and, you know, offer the smile and do the kind thing in return, and so, yeah, that's why we have to look in other places to find a place where I'm not always the one who is the caregiver, right, whether that's in a parent child, or whether we have lots of people, and you probably have too who are caregivers, you know, for other adult humans in their life and care for whoever it is is draining work, you have to find a way to fill your system again.  

Robyn: Yeah, the very last thing that I would love to just touch on Super briefly is that underneath all of that can be so much grief, right? That sense of i The lack of reciprocity in the authentic acknowledgement of in this moment, at this stage in the relationship, there is a big lack of reciprocity, and that is painful. It is painful to to be the more regulated person, to be making so many offerings and not receiving back. And I think people sometimes feel a little bit guilty about that, that like, Oh, if I want it back, I must have ulterior I don't know, all sorts of things get jumbled up in there, and it can, we can leave you feeling really guilty. But no, there's, it makes sense that there's grief.  

Deb: I mean, we have a longing, yes, but we have, we have we have an expectation nervous system has an expectation as well, yes, but we also have an autonomic longing. Yes, when our longing is not met, you know, in a moment, that's okay, but when it's not met repeatedly, we suffer, right? We suffer, and when we suffer, it makes sense that we then, you know, have stories that come, and some of the stories are the collapse story is, it's, I'm never going to have this right? And that's, that's a survival story, because it then stops you from longing. It turns tries to turn that off. Because every time you feel that longing, you feel the suffering again. So that's a that's a despairing, hopeless protective response, right? Again. It's protective. Your nervous system is trying to protect you by turning it off. We have the sympathetic anger, right? Which is that that other protective response, if, if I, you know, move you into that anger place, if you won't suffer so much, right? We begin to see how the nervous system is trying to help us survive an incredibly difficult situation. But along with either one of those, come the stories of of, of, you know, self-blame, self-criticism, right? I'm, I'm not a good, you know, for me, I would, you know, there were moments in life to say I'm a terrible mom, right? Because I can't, you know, do what, what my kid needs. I, you know, I'm a terrible mom. I just walked away, right? Or I blew up, or, you know, we go to those places. So my stories, I'm a terrible mom, and other people's stories might be, you know, my kid is, is, you know, they're just a terrible kid right now, you know, we go either way, we go in or we go out, because that's, that's what our nervous system feeds, the regulation, or the dysregulation, up the pathways that go to your brain. Your brain's job is to make a story, to make some kind of sense about the craziness we're in, right? And the brain can make up some pretty fantabulous stories.     

Deb: So you know when we can again, if we can take a step back and look at the scientific process that's going on. We sometimes can't get out of the the place of feeling like I'm a terrible human, right, right? Yes, yeah. Which is a place we all go to. I also want every human goes to that place. Sometimes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. God, it's not when we go to those places that's the problem. It's when we get stuck there, right, right, if you think about your day so far today. But I was just thinking of saying that I have already been not to the terrible human place, but to the dysregulated place. I have been anxious because. I was something happened on my computer. It's like, Oh, my God, I think I've just wiped out all this. It's, where is it? That anxious, right? I went to a bit of a, my dorsal, one of my collapse signs is I can, like, go through the motions, but all of a sudden I'm not really, like, I'm kind of not here doing it. I'm just sort of, you know, and you go through emotions and things end up where you didn't intend them to be right, like I was, I was cleaning up the confidence. I have no idea what I just did, because I really are doing it right. These are all moments of dysregulation, and then I could find my way back. It's the Finding Your Way Back builds resilience. That's that's what builds resilience in your in your nervous system. So we're looking for every time you just regulate and find your way back, celebrate it. That's a win. Take the win.  

Robyn: I'm just so grateful to have had you this with me this morning, and like I said, before we press play, like to introduce you to the folks who haven't met you yet and either maybe haven't heard you speak or have just never even heard of you. You know, I know when I came to the training that I came to in January, actually hadn't ever been in person with you before. That was my first time training in person with you, and I was my husband and I went together, and we were running a little late, and so when we got there, the room was completely packed. But we were lucky. We had some friends kind of save us seats, but our seats were practically in your lap, like we were so close to the stage in a in a way that was like a little neuroceving of danger, right? Like, whoa, we are close. And, oh, it was just perfection, you know, to be so close and to really, like, feel you. And my husband's an educator, and so I drug him along with I didn't drag him along. Actually, he was very excited. Actually, he was very excited to come because this has changed his life as an educator. It's changed our marriage. I mean, we're able to show up for each other in a way that absolutely we would not have been able to without this work. And so we were just, it was love. It was lovely to like be there together with him, and to experience you. And just the regulation and the safety is just accompanies you. And so I'm just so pleased to introduce you to my audience.  

Deb: Well, I would like to say to your audience, who listen to you that that you are beautifully regulated and your energy is delightful, very welcoming. So I'm sure that they are, are loving to tune in and hear what's new coming coming from you. So thanks for doing what you're doing in the world.  

Robyn: Yes, it's such a privilege, and I can do it because of all the people who have, like offered it to me, whether it be truly in person, like my relationship with Bonnie, or like Bonnie lives in me and my own therapist, or folks who I haven't had much direct contact with, like Steve, like you, like but that also inspires me to keep doing this work, because I know that even the listening people who will never meet me, it matters. It matters in the same way my connections with people I've never met before matter.  

Deb: It's interesting, because one of the things we do when we're trying to build resources is we look for people. We look the category of who. So you know, who's a who in your life, right? And sometimes the who's in our life are people we haven't met. Yes, we depend on we listen to bring us that sense of okayness for a moment. So you know that that we can look for that as well.  

Robyn: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know that my therapist and professionals who listen will want to go and and find all the work that you're doing. I'll make sure that gets included. And you know, the the many, many books that you've authored and co-authored, I mean, the work you've done, and I know you hear this over and over again, but the work you've done to take an exceptionally complex theory and make it useful to us, and that, you know, Dr Porges has been so eager to collaborate.   

Deb: We should talk about Steve, we should send this lovely, you know, loving energy to Steve, because without his work. But we would not know any of this without none of this would be possible. And if you haven't seen him in person or had a chance to listen to him, not not read him, his writings, listen to him or or see him. He is brilliant scientist, a brilliant actor, and the kindest, most humble human, I think you could ever meet. And that is a that is a powerful combination. It's amazing combination.  

Robyn: It is remarkable. We don't always run across that in our kind of leaders, yeah. And so the way he embodies this work is just lovely. So we're all very lucky to have each other. Well, thank you. Thank you, Deb. I hope to stay connected and for this to just be maybe one of the first conversations we have that you've been so profoundly impacting. So thank you.