NeuroRelational Healing with Guest Sara Sherman {EP 229}

Robyn: Sara, thank you so much for taking this time, hanging out with me this afternoon, coming on the podcast today!  

Sara Sherman: I'm so excited to be here. Robyn, thank you for the invitation!  

Robyn: When we scheduled this podcast. We did not know that only three days prior, you were going to show up at my front door.  

Sara: We did not know that, it was not part of the plan.  

Robyn: Which is so fun. Sara and her husband, Matt, who's her business partner, and also somebody I know quite well, just texted, like, on the day before the fourth or something, we're going to be in town. And I said, Oh my gosh, come over. Come over. So we got to share the holiday with you, and we'd never met in person before.  So thank you for coming to my house.  

Sara: Thank you for your hospitality and for having us and for spending this holiday season together.  

Robyn: It was wonderful. But what we're going to talk about today is not how we spend the Fourth of July, but I want everybody listening to hear about the amazing work that you and your husband, Matt are doing, and the way that you're serving kids and families, I think it is super inspiring, both to families out there who are, you know, looking for something that will help them, you know, and maybe they won't end up in your world. But I think when they hear about these different things, it offers them some hope that what they're looking for maybe does exist out there and but I also know, of course, lots of professionals listen to the podcast, and I know that there's a lot of professionals out there who could be really inspired by the work that you and Matt are doing. So let's just start kind of at the very beginning. Tell us a little bit about you first, and then about dandelion, and we'll go from there.  

Sara: Well me first. I'm Sara, and I just turned 50 in the last year, so it feels like a big turning point. You know, lots of midlife crisis types such, in the scenarios happening right now. Mm. Which is my latest hobby of auto racing. I'll just throw that in there, because it's my newest passion.  

Robyn: Which is how you landed at my front door.  

Sara: I was born in Minnesota, and knew that I wanted to work with people, my brother became profoundly deaf at the age of two. I was about six and And so growing up in a family with an individual that has a disability presented a lot of opportunity to to learn about family dynamics and what's available and what isn't. Watched my mom advocate for my brother in school systems and at the state capitol for years. So that advocate part of me is strong and and so just that was just part of what drove me through college and everything. Was just trying to figure out I was going to work with siblings with disabled children, actually was like my initial push, and one thing led to another, and I found that horses are really cool partners in this healing work, and I did a lot of training in that world still do. Got a degree in counseling, site, Bitcoin, experiential learning, and met Matt at college in Arizona and at a drum circle of all things. And from there, we started a family and we started a business. And actually, we were on a road trip similar to this road trip we're on now, and we decided this was before, we were still in college, and the idea was, what have a camp where everybody can come together and try a bunch of stuff, like, no matter what, right, like, I want to rock climb, or I want to basket weave or whatever, you know, and that we'd make that happen, and that we do it in community, and that has been the driving force and conversation that's gotten us to where we are today, which is, I think we're coming full circle pretty much to that place with a lot more therapeutic motivation than we had envisioned back in our camping trip in Colorado.  

Robyn: I love thinking about how these seeds get planted so so long ago. We have no idea like what the like. The actual vision is maybe not super clear, but there's this overall sense of like this, and then just in now hindsight, kind of looking back and watching the path, you know that absolutely led y'all to that, that goal, that's very cool. You're not currently in Minnesota, because you were here and you're still close by, but you live and work in Minnesota. Tell us about Dandelion and what y'all do, and Dandelion has recently made a big shift.  

Sara: So we founded our business in 2012 it was called Discovery Force, and that was a name that I took from my senior project in college and held on to that name, rock paper scissor for it with my partner, bell at the time, and carry that forward. And we started working out of a boarding facility, an equine boarding facility. And we were doing just a ton of groups with kids and schools, and I was doing a lot of work workshops. And I didn't grow up with horses. Horses have a big part of getting me to where we are today, and they're they're a big part of what we do today, but they're not necessarily the focus. The relationship piece is the focus. And horses offer us a beautiful opportunity to explore our own relationship patterns and our experience of the in between when we're with them and in ourselves and in the other and so you know much about the horsemanship? I didn't grow up with them. I loved them. You know, I was the little girl that wanted all the horses and ultimately ended up finding an organization. Because when I gave up riding, because what I didn't know how to do was to ask a horse if I could be on its back and then trust the answer. It had no idea if they really wanted me there, and I didn't want to be there if they didn't want me there. And I certainly wasn't going to put people, clients on them if there wasn't consent happening there. And so I was just going to, this was going to be a non-riding program based on groundwork, which is super powerful, and found this organization called Natural Lifemanship, and that's where I learned, actually, that's where I found you, and where I learned that it is possible to ask, of course, for consent and to understand that answer.   

Sara: And so that was the kickoff to neurobiology and the kickoff really to where we are today, because it really shifted our entire program. And, you know, we were always focused on connection and we could create. People loved coming to the farm. People loved working with us because it felt good and they wanted to come back almost every time. I mean, it was whether we're doing corporate work or we were doing workshops or working with kids, and what didn't feel good was that they needed to come back to have that experience. And we wanted people to be able to cultivate those experiences for themselves, but we weren't really sure what that meant. And then the science entered into our realm, and it was a game changer, because we started to understand why what we were doing was working, and then we could understand how to replicate it and do more of it and even be intentional. And so that, coupled with my ability to start to have different conversations, really, you know, learning how to ask for consent and be in relationship with a horse has given me deep, deep embodied experience around how nervous systems in general, communicate, and how important it is to harness my own to be able to be a safe and active participant in these processes.  

Robyn: Now, y'all are doing a lot of work with highly dysregulated kids and families.   

Sara: I would say most of the children, almost all of the children we work with have not been successful in other, more traditional therapies or modalities. Most of them have multiple providers that we attempt to collaborate with, and these are big behaviors. You know, they're all dealing with truancy, violence, aggression. I think many of them would be out of home if there was out of home options available to families in general. Not that I think that's always the best scenario, but I do think that that's where many of these kids would end up, sure, and sometimes it is the right option, sure, but we just, we're running out of those options.  

Robyn: Oh, yeah. I mean, there's so often where that really, you're right. It's not always the best option. But, you know, we you and I work with really intense kids and families, and there's lots of times where it really we look at a situation, it's like, oh, finding a place away from the family to do this work and then reintegrate back in would be wonderful. And that place doesn't exist in so many circumstances, for so many families that that's a luxury to even consider. So I've worked with a lot of those families too, where you're like, gosh, if the right out of home placement was possible, a right treatment facility existed, yeah, we would take advantage of that. But it doesn't. So here we are just doing the best that we can do with what we have. So tell me, tell me about the program like I'm so curious. Well, actually, before we go any further, let's be let's make this really clear to everyone listening. Is that how I've come to know your family so well and vice versa is that Matt participated in our first cohort of our immersion program, and then you participated in the next one, and then there's been other Dandelion employees who have come through, and y'all are using the material with your families. And Matt now continues to be a part of the program, as a student coach, and so through that connection is really how we've gotten to know each other well, and also for everyone listening like Matt and Sara are really deeply connected to the material that y'all are listening to week after week after week. So with that, tell us about what y'all are offering. Because I think it's so helpful for families to get an idea of the different kinds of things that are out there. Yeah. And I also think it's really important for professionals to hear what other professionals are doing. So y'all are doing amazing things. So tell me.  

Sara: Yeah, I'd love to. Well, it's been such an evolution, and it's been such a heavy lift to get to where we are today. I I'm going to do my best not to get, like, lost in the in the in the in the challenge of it, um, because the success of it, and the outcome of it is extraordina it, like it actually makes me emotional. It's extraordinary.  

Robyn: It is. It really is extraordinary. Like even the limited amount that I watch y'all do is remarkable in the community that you're doing it for with the resources that you have. Available. It's really, it's really remarkable, and the challenges are a part of it, right? Like, you know, like the attachment process is a part of everything. So all this rupture and repair and rupture and repair, that's how we create something secure.  

Sara: Which, from a personal lens, rupture and repair, making mistakes, imperfection, disappointing others. You know, strong aversiveness to that lot of resistance. So, yes, oh, I think you've gotten pretty good at the rupture and repair cycle at this point, and inherently uncomfortable, all of it, personally and professionally, and yet it continues to be the thing that resist forward. So our program, as it sits today, is in the state of Minnesota, we have something called a waiver program. it's a state and federally funded program that provides a different set of opportunities for families. And that's all I'm going to go into. It's we could do like 18 podcasts. So it provides a funding source and allows for intensive options for individuals or families. We do work with people outside of the waiver. However, our focus has been to build a very comprehensive program that works, so that we can prove that it works, and then we can start to, you know, take apart of it, and offer it to people in in smaller, you know, instances. It may be less intensity, less frequency, less step, but it's still effective in the way that we want it to be effective. So now we get to kind of reverse, yeah, now that we've reached this place. And so families are with us. We have a 15 acre farm, and the families that work with us, work with us virtually, in home, in their homes, in our community and at the farm. And we do work with families, individually, primarily individually up front, and then we do a ton of group based work.   

Sara: So parents actually, we've just actually, we're going to launch in the next month or so, what we call a connection bridge. And the connection bridge is our answer to long wait list and mobilizing support right away. And one of the one of the huge components of the connection bridge is your course. And so parents and families that want to get involved in our program, they start there, and it's a virtual program, so it allows for less capacity needs from our staff, while still being able to start to offer something, some touch point, some community, some connection for parents. Specifically, we do not start with the children until they have shifted into our in person program. And so in that, in the connection bridge, there's the course, and then then we have twice a month groups where parents come together and we sort of are integrating and practicing the information. And then we do sort of office hours, where we can do questions and answers more and more. And so that's how parents get involved. And for me, it feels like doesn't feel like enough. Matt and I both get really stressed, like it's not going to be enough, and I have to keep reminding myself, and in the absence of this, there would be nothing. It's something, and it matters. Because you know that, I think the biggest takeaways for me in all this work is slow down, slow down, slow down. Slow down in anything. And whatever we're talking about, whatever you're doing, slow down and curiosity, and what does it take to be curious within myself and then to do that work and and that can, I mean, you know, in in the work that you're doing, and in the course that you're teaching, in the material, this idea of connection, co-regulation and felt safety before anything else like that applies across the board.   

Sara: If I'm working with a resistant case manager, I'm working with a mom, I'm working with my horse, you know, it exists everywhere. And so the goal has been very systemic about everything, so that the same principles and the same modalities that we're doing, that we're working with clients also are informing and infusing everywhere across the board. So that's how we run our business, that's how I work with staff. That's how we hire and train staff. Is through the lens of disconnected relationships and safety, felt safety, and so we're not putting on a professional hat. We're not putting out our personal hat. We recognize that I am the constant that moves through the world, and so learning how to be connected and aware of who I am as I move through the world as a professional at whatever level within our organization. Is paramount. It's paramount. We've actually, I've actually developed a bit of an assessment process to help me understand where people are at and the capacity to make those shifts rapidly and with some support, but not the level of support we give our family. We give them a time of support. You know, it's over nurture in the beginning over nurture, you know, as little structure, as much structure as they can handle, and then just scaffolding that from there, that's it. And really addressing a lot of the systemic issues that we find families running into, the depth of appointments and providers that these families have, is insane. It's insane, and I see you know exactly what I'm talking about. You know, parents are working full time. They're raising these children. They probably have not had adequate support and and therapy and trauma processing of their own. They are constantly being judged. I mean, it is so easy to walk out into the world. I actually one of my most favorite moments was a few weeks ago during the parent group. One of our, we call them our OG parents. They were one of the originals. He was talking about being at Costco and seeing this kid having a meltdown with his parents. And he said, everybody, you could just see people just like, you know, darts gazing, darts of judgment. And he said, I just walked over to that mom, and I said, listen, it's going to be okay and that's it. That's how this changes. That's how we that's how we make these communities bigger, and how we create more room for acceptance and support so that we can support families in supporting their children and making the changes that they need, because kids don't want to do this. They don't want to feel like that.  

Sara: It hurts. It's a terrible way to exist. Have to constantly be out of control and then not feeling good about how we showed up. And I think that completely extends to the parents, too. And going back to what you're saying about, you know, in taking, you know, treatment options or out of home, I think it's, it's as much for the parents as it is for the kids, because if you're in that, you know, intense state of survival, and all you're doing is surviving. You have to have space to get regulated in order to even start to learn, much less start to change the way you're going to show up. Yeah, that's tough. Change is tough.  

Robyn: The families we work with are like, they're being asked on a moment by moment basis, basis, to do something super human, right? Like, everything in your life is falling apart, and also you've got to figure out how to get it together enough to offer some support to your kid or safety. It's like, what? But what's the alternative? I mean, there are alternatives, but they're not available.  

Sara: They're not available. And that's the thing, right? Yeah, you don't have those options. Yeah, and so, and I think that, you know, in the work that we do, one of the biggest thing that parents face is this is about my kid, so why aren't you working with my kid? So there's that piece, right? And and then also this needs to happen faster. Yeah, they want they want problem solving. They want solution. And I think the hardest part for us, and I say us as our team, is, is to be able to hear and hold space for the pressure and the urgency in which these families need help, and to also remember that we have to be very careful, mindful about how much problem solving and solution solution focused work we're doing, because their ability to sustain anything that we offer is limited until we have built their capacity internally. And so being able to sit with discomfort and struggle and to offer a connection through that is, I think, probably one of the biggest assets, and because we have to be able to continually mitigate and meet them where they're at and not give them necessarily what they think they need.  

Robyn: That is so tricky, and is maybe one of the top questions that I get from professionals, especially when I've started working with them new is- oftentimes professionals, can, you know, buy into the idea that, like, it's not like, the solution isn't the strategy. They could be like, okay, okay, okay, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. But the family sure thinks it is, and they're, oh yeah, real mad that I'm not giving it to them. So how do we do both? Both like, how do we be with the very real reality that, of course, that's what they want, and of course they're real mad that you're not. Of course that is makes perfect sense, and they have all of those feelings are just so valid. And how does that be true while you also hold to your own truth. That's like, if there was a strategy that was going to fix this problem, this family would have certainly found it by now.  

Sara: So there's not like any of these families have not been looking everywhere. It's everywhere, right? Screaming for help, really? Yeah, dreaming for and I think, oh, boy, I just really felt into that, that screaming for help and what it takes to be able to not answer to that. Well, today it's a line, right? Because sometimes you do provide solutions and sometimes you don't, and it's all dependent on all the things, literally all the things and we do a ton of informed consent ahead of time. A ton of this takes time. A ton of why this takes time. That's why we offer the course so early on, knowing that they are going to retain, like 5% of it. We they can attend as many times as we offer it on a rolling basis. So they can come as many times as you want. We have one family, one foster parents, been through it four times, and still doesn't remember in times of, you know, significant dysregulation and stuff, and that makes sense.  

Sara: Moments of that today already, yes, yes, absolutely. And so we offer the education so that we can lean into it a little bit later on when there's resistance. Like it really is a way we really do kind of know something and and we'll continue to say it over and over, and, more importantly, practice it over and over and and continue. You know, I think the community that we offer is the thing that keeps people hooked until they start to actually get it. The community piece is so strong we get parents together as quick as we see them frequently, and we do that while also recognizing that they are seeing others frequently. And so we speak these things out loud. We say these things out loud. We actively attempt to collaborate with their their other teams so that we can be on the same page. Because so many times I hear parents say, Well, you know, this person tells me to do this when Johnny won't tie his shoes, and this person tells me to do this, and this person, and this person's telling Johnny that he needs to take a deep breath, and Johnny can't even f****** breathe anymore. Sorry to swear, but that's how we talk, right, right? And it's if they're not reasonable expectation these, yeah, the expectations that these families are facing in the current system, that they're working in reason and helping them see that like we how do we start to perceive ourselves in our situations outside of the systems that define it, that are broken and that doesn't mean the people in the system, the individuals that we work with are incredible, and they want something better, and they feel helpless also to be able to affect change, because we're talking about huge systems that take an enormous amount of effort and collaboration to share. And so figuring out how to do that in small, meaningful ways, while not losing sight of the bigger picture is also, I think, a really important peice  

Robyn: I feel like that's something I've really observed in y'all and have had so much. I don't know. I'm so impressed by I have so much gratitude for is watching you walk your walk right? Like it's one thing to show up at work with your clients, frankly, especially when they're kids, and have this idea of all behavior makes sense. And we're going to lean into this relationship with regulation and connection and felt safety and all these things you've talked about like, it's one thing to do that with kids. It's a totally different thing to extend that to your colleagues or to your the treatment team, especially if the treatment team is like from a different organization, and therefore they're maybe not grounded in the same things that you are, so you don't even have that kind of shared language or that shared, sometimes unspoken goals, right? Like we're all here together to do this one thing, right? So, and I've watched you, have heard you talk about trying. To be with folks from different organizations who are involved in a, you know, a family or child's treatment, but then also the staff and the way that you've worked so hard to bring these core values about what it means to be human into those spaces as well. It's pretty incredible. It's pretty incredible.  

Sara: And what it means to be a professional, because when you walk on our property and you jump in into a group or a session, it may not represent what professional would be, you know, perceived as outside of those situations in any way. Um, at all, actually, yep, and I know that there's times like we do. So when we hire people, when we interview them, they go through a they do a video submission, they do three virtual interviews, they do an on site working interview, and then they do a follow up, wrap up interview, after that, when we've now, you know, generated all this, you know, experience that we can now question and ask questions and be curious about, and mostly, and we let them know we're watching how you do things. What you know is, is secondary to how you implement what you know. In fact, the people that know the most often scare me the most, because I don't know what their capacity is to put it into practice. And that is the most important part is, is their ability to do that, and their ability to be coachable and learn and be able to learn, you know, in the moment, being able to do that. But it is, you know, having both people and business profitability is my goal as a business owner and entrepreneur, and the world is not set up for that to be a successful endeavor, because we're all human, and we live in a very capitalistic world. And I want to pay my staff well, and I want them to have reasonable case loads, and I want them to find joy, and we're managing that to a certain degree. I mean, it's hard. We're pretty overwhelmed right now because we're trying to, you know, kind of still cultivate some of the things that we envision. And we all get to show up every day and be in a connected and safe workspace, truly.   

Sara: And it makes struggle a little less difficult when we get to do it together, because I've heard you say many times and it really is happening, and that's what we're inviting collaborators to do with us also. And you know, one thing we haven't mentioned is that we are a team of coaches. We are not licensed professionals, and, you know, we could do another podcast about that, because as a coach coming up in this industry, it's been very challenging, especially because I've been very successful, and that success hasn't always been accepted, because there's a lot of like, skepticism and wondering how that could happen if we're not doing therapy, and it is happening and and I'm excited about the movement I see in the field, just overall, of the movement of this, you know, of interpersonal neurobiology, somatic based work that we're looking more at the body, because people are becoming more curious, what's make my job a little less difficult. Also, Robyn, figuring out how to deliver and not take any of this personally has been, you know? I mean, that's what makes it possible, and that is just so hard. I it's so hard, it's so hard.  

Robyn: I mean, yes, it's very hard, and we have often gone into this field with a touch of people pleaser parts. So to bring that part of ourselves and to really, truly bring it right,like I can't not bring it, so I might as well figure out a way to bring it, but also to set boundaries in a way, or to create structure in a way that will inevitably leave people unhappy. It is very hard. I hear you describing such intentionality around creating felt safety. I mean, you know the what did you call it? The connection bridge is that what it's called? So this way you're starting with such clear expectations, like there's this, just like you said, so much informed consent around this is what we do. This is what we'll offer you. Here's how we hold up our end of the bargain about what we're going to offer you. Here's what we ask of you, and that mutuality. Me, and the opportunity to say to truly consent to that. I hear so many professionals who kind of skip over that part. And then there are months down the road and they're like this, we're struggling with this, or this family side, and we kind of go back to like, Well, did you really get kind of essentially informed consent for coming together and working with one another in this way, which is so deeply respectful, really, to give people the autonomy to choose, do you want to receive services in this way or not, and then this felt safety that you're offering folks. I mean, I think a huge part of felt safety as professionals is proving up to the people who are coming to us vulnerably is we know what we're doing, which isn't synonymous with arrogance. And you know, sitting in the role of expert necessarily, but to embody confidence of I've got this. I won't always know the answers, but when I don't, I'll admit it, and we'll work on them together. But that sense of, you know, when someone comes into your program and they're like, Wow, they have, they've thought of all of these things, and they're offering this and and I'm not going to remember anything that they're teaching me, but what I am going to remember is that this person knows what they're talking about. There is safety. There is so much safety in that.  

Sara: That embodying expertise, without the arrogant, is a game changer. It's a game changer. And because people want-these families need someone they can lean into. They really need someone they can. You know, the word I always use is resistance, right? Like that that is willing to engage with the resistance and not give up, not walk away. You know, we always talk about, you know, person centered care. And, and if we're not talking about compliance when we're talking about person centered care, then we're not really talking about person centered care, in my opinion, and, and in that I mean, you know, I think about families. So we're very intentional about scheduling. We schedule. We do all the scheduling. People don't choose, like when they want to come and when they don't. We say, This is what works, and this is the framework that works, and this is the framework we're going to use. And we recognize every family is different, and we will customize the framework that we're keeping to meet the needs of this individual family. And we will not alter our framework because it works. And if people, when people come to our door, we offer intensive work, and that's what, that's our goal is to actually follow through with that. And we have to be really confident that we we believe in that, because when they struggle with it, we need to be able to stand in that confidence so that they can feel that support and that anchor and and we let people know you can question us all the days, every day, right? Like ask me about that policy. Ask me why we were late. Ask me why we have to do this again many times as you want. I'll tell staff, you know, if they call and they ask the same question 15 times, my hope is that you can answer it with the same level of regulation and connection as possible.  

Sara: And if you're getting frustrated, let's talk about it so you can show back up on that phone call and continue to be the person they need you to be in this situation. And that's just that is always going to we're always going to do that and and also recognizing, too Robyn, that when people come in, they're not in their Owl brain. They're not, you know, can I really make informed- can I have, can I make informed consent, informed decision making in this dysregulated space? Yeah, you know, one would question that. So what? What is the best that we can do right? And then also saying question it, ask questions. Let us know. We have an attendance policy, because financially, it's really hard when people don't show up, because we lose money. And, I mean, we lose a lot of money. Yeah, potentially now we're lucky we don't get a lot of no shows or cancelations. However, when we do get them, they hurt. So our policy now is that after three no shows or late cancelation we're going to put a pause on what's happening and we're going to schedule an in person meeting so we could talk about what's up.  

Sara: And people perceive it as punishment or that we're judging them, and they just have to go through it to understand it's not because it might be our fault. Maybe we didn't communicate something correctly, maybe our reminder system is down. Maybe we gave them the wrong date, you know? I mean, there's a million things so we want to be accountable too, and that that is a really great example of of how we kind of build in that felt safety and building that informed consent, and continue to let them know how we're going to show up regardless of what's going on in their world.  

Robyn: I think we should do an entire additional episode, or I'll just have you come and do a little training for us, because I think it is hard for professionals to have really solid boundaries around that kind of stuff, and I know it was for me at first, too. All right, we want to take care of people. We want to be understanding. We want to not make clients mad, so they keep coming back. Because, you know, like there's all sorts of things, and I have found exactly what you have found too, is that we absolutely can set really strong, solid, compassionate boundaries. And not only can we, but we must, when we are doing this intensity of relational work, it must be accompanied by strong, compassionate boundaries. It just must. I don't think it works otherwise. And so to hear the way you can compassionately set these boundaries, and also, you just said something so important that like, they feel punished, and they just have to get through it to see that they're not like, that you didn't take ownership of like. How can I help make sure that they know they're not being punished. You can't. They just have to get through it to see that they're not.  

Sara: Actually, we'll be with him the whole way. They just might not feel us. And we'll meet him on the other side. We'll be there. We're not going away.  

Robyn: But this is exactly what we want parents to embody in their parents. And it is so hard. It's like, a million times harder when parenting, like, we're just running businesses, right? It is so much harder in parenting. But like this is a part of helping, helping the families that we support is by, you know, like showing them this framework and that you can get through it.  

Sara: And we constantly- like our marketing, our language, our, you know, our orientation is we are, we are operating how we are supporting you and operating within your family. And so in those times, we can say, and this is part of what we're talking about with your child when we're referencing this, if it's the right time, but just to your point. You know, there's we could just continue to find really embodying this model organizationally allows us to be able to over and over support what we're asking parents to do always. We're always doing that, and it's been so helpful in these especially in this boundary setting, because it's tricky. We are not taught how to how to have and walk compassionate boundaries. And it is, it is absolutely, I would agree.  

Robyn: Well, and I'm certain, although we don't have time to really go into this, but I'm certain that, then, the way you are with your employees, and the way that you support them, and you have, you know, high structure, high nurture with them, right? Like they're real human beings, and they can be human at work, and they can have all their real, real, real feelings. And also, here's the structure, here's the expectations, and then here's how we support you, here's what we do, so that you can be your most regulated self when you're going into the work with these, you know, highly dysregulated families.  

Sara: That's the, you know, that really bumps up against, what is professionalism, and who am I as a professional? And how do I define success? You know, these, these things, make those questions even more difficult, and they're already really difficult and and if we aren't doing it, then it is happening at our expense. And burnout and compassion fatigue are I mean, as a business owner, it's not an option to protect my team and helping them learn how to not- I don't want to say protect, not from a survival state, but yeah, I guess, to protect who they are and their health, I guess, and to do so in a way that I can still be connected, right? It doesn't have to be either, or I can be boundaried and connected.  

Sara: We, in our hiring, we talk a lot about their ability to receive ongoing, constant feedback and to be observed at a very deep level. And I say we are behavior. I mean, we are detectives. I use that way. We are we? So we will notice if you respond to a question with a different tone the third time, and then if you do it again and again and again and and we're going to address that if it feels like it's something that could lead to an issue later down the line, and we talk about the difference between micromanaging and scaffolding support. And do you know the difference? And does your body know the difference? Because your brain might, but your body may not, and this will happen and and I want to be we have we start performance support plans day one so we can mitigate these things, and we have a plan in place for when those patterns get interrupted and they you know, like you're just trying to control me, because you're telling me I had to lock the car door every time I leave it. Nope, not trying to control you, really, just trying to create consistency and predictability for the team.  

Robyn: This has been super. I feel like I've had such a privilege of like, just hanging out with you lately and getting to know you, and I felt like I did know you, and I learned so much more today about the just amazing work y'all are doing. I mean, you are so embodying this work. And to be clear for everyone listening like I know that you, Sara, do not execute this work perfectly at all, and that's really never part of embodying it, that we can't do it perfect and we want to, and I get that, And it's crummy when we don't, but we don't, and then to just also be in that part is so important.  

Sara: Actually, when I can get there and I can be in it, it's maybe the most free I've ever felt, to give myself permission to be imperfect and not try to hide that, yeah, but to see it as a, it's just who I am, and be able to recognize when I have to say I'm sorry, Yeah, figure out how to do it different next time. Yeah, that doesn't mean a bad person.  

Robyn: Well, this has just been so delightful. I would love us to do it again, and I'm already just like sparking with so many so many other ideas that we can come back together and chat about or even co-create. So this has been super Thank you. Love it.  

Sara: I really am so grateful for your program, and mostly I'm grateful for you and what you've taught me about, the things that we've talked about today, and even more importantly than taught is that you've modeled, your modeling of imperfection and grace is is pretty extraordinary, and you have been very consistent about and I think it takes People in perceived positions of authority, which I you are one of those people to to to do that for us, and I hope to be one of those people for others, because it's really what creates the most change. And I'm so grateful to be part of your world and part of this work and part of this movement. So thank you for having me on today, and I look forward to whatever happens.  

Robyn: Thank you for saying those things. It is always nice to hear people's reflections. So I do really appreciate that. I'm just so grateful for you and Matt. You've been such cool, cool people to have, I mean, because of the program, and that's how I know y'all and ended up at you coming to my house for a little makeshift party. So I don't that stuff just blows my mind. Like, started this thing, and now our community is bigger and, you know? And I knew too, like, oh man, Sara, can be our people. Like, I can't wait for them to come for our house. It's gonna be super so thank you. Thank you, Sarah, thank you.  

Robyn: See I told you, you would just love her. Y'all Sara recorded this interview in true Sara style. Outside. It was beautiful. They're on a road trip. It was just an absolutely perfect way to authentically connect with Sara and authentically introduce her to you. Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show. Y'all have a couple fun interviews on the books for the coming months. We've got some really good stuff to look forward to, so I will be with youagain next week back here on The Baffling Behavior Show.