Supporting Kids who Live Part Time in a Home without Regulation, Connection, or Felt Safety {EP 228)

Robyn: So I finally got Sybil on the podcast, and I'm looking forward to introducing her as a resource to y'all, and having a very solid place to refer folks to who are really struggling with trying to parent a child with regulation connection and feel safety, while also feeling as though they have absolutely no control over what's happening in their child's other home. Sybil talks about, how do we support kids who live part time with somebody where there's coercive control as a parenting strategy, and she's going to define coercive control and whether you feel if that coercive control applies in your situation or not, if you're feeling out of control with how your child is being parented in their other home, I think that this episode will really resonate with you and and even if you qren't navigating a co-parenting situation, you likely have other adults who interact with and support your child that you aren't in control of how they're doing that. Sybil also has a podcast and a community called Rising Beyond Power and Control, and she's really active in the legislative process, so I'm thrilled to introduce you to Sybil. You're really going to enjoy her and the additional resources that she can offer. So without any further delay, y'all, I'm so pleased to introduce you to my colleague, Sybil Cummin.   

Robyn: Sybil, thank you so much for accepting the invitation and coming on the podcast. I'm really excited to chat with you for the next little bit!  

Sybil Cummin: I am really excited to be here. I've had you on mine, and feels really good to kind of have another conversation.  

Robyn: We don't know each other very well, so I'm excited about that, that we get to have some more time to connect here today. Tell everybody who's listening just a little bit about your background, you have a very unique, very important area of expertise, and then kind of how you maybe even fell into that area of expertise,  

Sybil: Yeah. So I am a licensed professional counselor, and I've been specializing in working with families where there is domestic violence and coercive control. I've been doing that for well over a decade, and so I have a private practice doing those things. But then I also started a community which is not actually called the Rising Beyond Community, but that's what people started calling it. So that's just what we call it now. And these are parents who are they've separated from their abusive partner, and yet they share children with them, and so they have to air quotes, co-parent with them. So that's kind of where I I've landed, but actually started as a play therapist, and so I saw this through the eyes of the kids that I was working with. And what does it what is it like to kind of go back and forth from one home where there's, you know, course of control as, like, the parenting style, and then the other home where maybe there are really high levels of trauma, and the parent wants, just wants the best for their child, and they're not sure how to do that as they heal themselves. And how I really, like, jumped in, like, deep dive was unicorn therapist. I do testify in court on occasion, if it is in the best interest of my child that I'm working with, and I would share my thoughts and things and what was going on. And it was like no one cared. Like, I know this child, I see the dynamics. This is my area of specialty. And it doesn't actually matter what I'm saying is that kids are being placed in unsafe situations. So that was, yep, couldn't put my like, couldn't wrap my arms around that. So deep dive into what the heck was going on.  

Robyn: I imagine also you had maybe a similar experience that I did at the very beginning of my career, which was like, not only being kind of aghast, there's like, what do you mean? You don't care. You're not listening to me. Or there's no resources. But also, there's not really many mentors to go to. There wasn't there was so little information that I had to do a lot of cobbling together myself, and I imagine that was kind of true for you too.  

Sybil: Yes, yes, I talk about all the time, and it's like, in my graduate program, I thought I left and I was gonna be like, golden, right? Like, I know all the things, and now I can be civic therapist. And then at an agency I was working with, I got deemed good at DV cases. Don't know what that means. Still have no clue, like, 15 years later, I don't know what that means, and my supervisors didn't know any more than I did about the dynamics in these families. So yes, I had to, like, kind of seek out, you know, information from different arenas than the counseling space. And then, like, you know, gasp, I had to learn from my clients. Oh, my goodness. And so that's really where my my knowledge came from. Is like observing what was going on and what's going on with my child clients, what was going with the parents? Was going on the larger systems and all of those things. And that's kind of how I, yeah, cobble it together, just like spackled it like, together.  

Robyn: Gosh, I love that. You just said that we do not say that enough in our field, because we don't do that enough in our field. Yeah, and I feel similarly, and people will talk about needing an adoption competent therapist or a trauma competent therapist, which, yes, of course you do. But I'll in the back of my mind, I'm all, I'm always kind of like, you really just need a therapist who's willing to, like, listen and believe you and exactly what you said, like, learn from them. Go in with that beginner's mind.  

Sybil: Yeah, and if you're a mama listening or a parent listening, you are the expert on your life. I am not right. I am an expert on a lot of things, but I don't I'm not an expert on your life. So it's like that is why learning from the people I work with is the most important thing. Like, I'm not an expert on the child's experience. I'm an expert on, like, watching what the child is bringing to their room and making sense of that. Like, that's what I've been trained to do. Not like to mind read, which would be cool, like I would, I would really like that. If that was my that would be maybe my superpower, if I had one.  

Robyn: I love. I mean, that's so far off what we're planning to talk about today, but I just love that she said that, especially right here at the beginning, because I know a lot of professionals do listen. So before we get any further, would you give a definition of course of control?  

Sybil: Yeah, so course of control really is like entrapment, where one person really does their darndest to take away the freedoms, the liberty, the sense of self of their target. So it's a pretty general, you know, kind of like this larger definition, rather than the specific things that happens. But what I've seen is that, yes, there are kind of categories of different abuses, but there are some things that you can't even place in one of those categories and fits coercive control. And so this can happen to an adult partner, it can happen to the child, but the goal is to kind of take away the liberty, the freedom, the agency, the autonomy over time. So it doesn't happen, you know, at the first date, or it does, although that's where it starts. It's really early on, but it takes time. It's a systematic process of taking that away from somebody.  

Robyn: And I feel like there's a lot of- this is not my area of expertise to everybody listening. To be very clear, anything that I say is just my kind of fumbling through the world, you know, noticing. But I feel like there's often this sense of self-doubt then, because it is, maybe we could use the word subtle. It doesn't necessarily fit the definition of abuse that people typically think of that then it adds this other layer that is also so traumatic is of the the self doubt, like, Am I making this up? Are there people seeing what I'm seeing? What's the big deal here? But it feels like a big deal.  

Sybil: Yeah. And the the, you know, it's like the death by 1000 paper cuts, yeah? Of if you're explaining this one paper cut, someone might be like, well, that's annoying, but they aren't seeing the pattern and the gravity of one paper cut after another and how harmful that is. And so, yeah, there's very, you know, a lot of self doubt, like a loss, that loss of sense of self, like not even knowing who they are, kind of what they value, sometimes that's kind of taken away. And so yeah, they might share these, like, small things with family and friends. That just sounds petty, yeah, because they shared this one incident, right? It's like, oh, and he always keeps the lunch box. And then, you know, talking about that, and it's like, yeah, it's a lunch box. You know, if you're listening and you don't understand the nuance, you don't understand the full pattern of what's happened, it's not about the lunch box, right? It's about the consistent patterns of maybe financial control or financial abuse, or, you know, just causing those little injuries over time.  

Robyn: So as I'm thinking about the folks who are listening to this podcast, you know, the vast majority of them are parenting kids who have what we might call a behavioral disorder, right? They've got these very vulnerable, very sensitive nervous systems, for whatever reason, many though, of them, of the children, have histories themselves of complex trauma, attachment, loss, and has led to all this vulnerability in their nervous system, which then leads to these out of control behaviors that are very confusing and baffling to everybody. So if we consider that, think about the context of, you know, parenting parents, parenting kids with behavioral special needs, and then also trying to do that with a ex partner or a do- do we use the word co-parent, or is there a different word?  

Sybil: Usually, I don't know. Sometimes I air quotes it because, and it's funny because the like, in an ideal world, yes, you co-parent with this person. That's the that's the best standard if you are separating from the other parent. And co-parenting isn't really possible with someone who has, like, high levels of narcissistic traits, who are using power and control to gain power over you, to gain power over the child, to control the situation. And so co-parenting is, like, what the courts want you to say, like, I'm a good co-parent, but it's actually almost impossible to truly co-parent in, you know, with good faith in these relationships. So I don't know if there's a right term. I don't know if there's a good term for this other person.  

Robyn: Well, in and of itself, sort of like encompasses the whole experience in that we are using this word that is slightly gaslighting in and of itself.  

Robyn: Okay. So obviously, there's so many different things we could talk about, but what I really want to talk about is the, you know, the kids and that even if there are bigger systems at play, and we're working to create better systems to support this kid and this family and custody and all that kind of stuff we still have the day to day, moment to moment, of this child experience, and these two parents and these two homes, and what's happening between the two of them and and the lack of control. Yeah, that so many of the parents I know feel you know, to be able to keep their child safe and see people to keep their relationship with their child safe, yeah. So when we don't have the power to say, No, you're just not spending time with that person because they're not good for you, what do we do?   

Sybil: I want to put it out there. First is that there are things you can do, even though it feels so defeating that transitions back to your home might be a nightmare. You might have to be like bribing your child, they're kicking and screaming to get in the car to go to the other parent's house, right? There are all these things. So, yes, big baffling behaviors. They are coming. They're not so baffling right, like, not baffling makes sense, yeah. And so there are things that you can do. And so I think the most important thing to focus on, and this is beneficial for your child, but it is also beneficial for custody related things to refute the narrative that your ex-partner is saying about you. So the kind of the number one thing I'm going to share, it's going to do both and so that really is being able to show and have your child feel the contrast between what it feels like to be with you and your relationship with your child versus what it feels like to be in relationship with the other parent. Because, right, so many of the parents I work with, they want like. I want my child to understand about their dad or about the other parent. I want them to understand like they need to see it. They need to know. And while that might be true, that might not all that might not be true, and the best way to do it is by helping them feel the difference. So what does it feel like to be at a home that offers safety, that offers unconditional care, unconditional love, like a place they can fall down, get back up, and they know they're loved, a place where they can try on different identities, and it doesn't matter, because you love them and they know it right, versus going to the other home where they are typically seen as complacent objects, like that's the goal. Is that their identity needs to be what the parent wants their identity to be, how they show up in the world. Is this specific way. They're loved when they are winning the football game. They're loved when they get straight A's. They're loved when they say something bad about the other parent. They're loved when they're stroking the ego of that abusive parent, but they're not loved unconditionally. And so if they can feel the difference over time, they know where it is safe, their nervous systems know and so that is like the number one thing that you can do is to show up in those ways.  

Robyn: When you say show up in those ways. You mean, really think about showing up as the parent who is able to be with that child unconditionally.  

Sybil: Yeah. So showing up like being able to attune to your child's needs in the moment, showing up with consistency. So if you say you're going to do something, you do the thing if you know, and I'm not a huge proponent of, like, super rigid structure, but having some sort of predictability for your child so they know what that you expect at your home, because that's the one thing right, that is you can expect about someone who is abusive, who uses manipulation, power control is you can't always expect their reaction to things. They may react this time like it's no big deal, and then they may react the next time like it is the worst thing that could have ever happened. And so showing up in those ways where your child knows what to expect from you, so maybe they did do. They misbehaved at school. You got the call from school, and they have an idea of how you will behave when you see your child next, so they're not fearing, like, how is this? You know, how are they going to act today? They know how you're going to act. To some you know, to some extent, we all bad days as parents. Like, I'm a mom, do I lecture my child in the car because they can't leave my car right? Even though I know right, like, the voice of my head is. Sybil, stop talking. You're not even listening. They've totally shut off. Oh, wow. They're closing down. But your mouth keeps going and I still do it. Yes, right? Like we do the like we show up as humans. So the more we can show up as just like loving attuned humans, the better.  

Robyn Gobbel: It's so hard to be in relationship with somebody who is essentially making you question every moment of your own reality. Yeah. So, again, this is not my area of expertise at all, and because it's not, you know, when I would- you know, be working with these families in my office, that was something I often kind of came back to in my own because it gets so big and overwhelming. You're like, Oh my gosh. What am I even doing here with these with this family? How am I even helping? What's even the goals here? And so often I'd come back to, how are- what are experiences I can provide this child and the parent as well, if I happen to be working with them, that help them believe themselves, yeah and know that the sensations that they're having and the cues that their body is telling them and doesn't necessarily have to be about the other parent, but just kind of in general In the world, like you can trust your body and the information, like your spidey sense. Does that feel like that makes sense?  

Sybil: Yeah, and it's hard. It's really hard because you've basically, most likely been told by your ex-partner, by other professionals you've met with, by whomever, and then your child's acting a hot mess at your house, and they might be behaving just perfectly at the other home, yes? And so you're like, Yes, I'm a crappy parent. Yep, see, they are right. I'm horrible. I don't know what I'm doing. I can feel the relationship being like, changing. It's breaking down. It's doing all these things, because my kid's always in trouble at my house, or whatever it looks like, and so it is really hard. And so I think understanding kind of how course of control impacts the child, how these relationships impact the child, can help you kind of come back to like, Oh no, no, I'm I do know what I'm doing. I do know my child. I do know these things, and my knowing is really important, because it it is highly possible that your child is the perfect child at the other home. And why might that be? Because it's safer. Yeah, it is safer. And so if they are placating and people pleasing and doing all of those things, is because it is not safe for them to act out at the other parent's home, because they can't expect what's going to happen, or they've seen what the other parent's anger looks like, or they don't want to have the silent treatment like what eight year old wants to have the silent treatment for weeks, and it happens, and so they are more likely to act in that funny kind of placating way at a home that is not safe for them.  

Robyn: I know what it I feel like when I'm with somebody with some narcissistic tendencies or these, you know, course of control behaviors like what it feels like for me is so yucky and so uncomfortable and so hard to give language to. I just know it feels awful, and I want to get away. And so if I kind of project that onto a small child, and imagine that those yucky feelings that they're probably somewhat dissociating when they're in the middle of it, because why wouldn't they? Right? They can't do anything about it. It's awful. And then those kind of yucky feelings come up into the surface and kind of, in a way, almost have to come out. And that tends to happen then in a place where they don't have to disconnect.  

Sybil: And they can that, right, yeah. And then they're feeling all their feelings, and that feels huge, yeah? And they don't want, they don't want to do that either, right? Those all feel really big, and they're coming to the surface because they've held their stuff together for so long, potentially, yeah, right. It's like, I think about my youngest will, like, hold his stuff together at school all day long, and then, literally, we walk past this light post, like I go to pick him up, and we walk together, and we're walking to the cart. The minute we get past this one light post, that is when the weird noises happen. He's yelling, Robyn, I were telling this before, but the F bombs start flying. About things that we don't need F bombs for, and it is loud, and he's like, rough with me physically, and it's because he held his stuff together for so long. And you know, all the teachers are like, Oh my gosh, she's such a pleasure to have in school. Like, no problems here. And I'm like, Nope, okay, to hang out at my house, and then you could see them show up, so in a more like deep and intense way, that is maybe what's happening when they transition from the other parents home to your home.  

Robyn: And then I imagine how important it is for that parent to you know when they receive the child back home, that parent to find a place where somebody can reflect their own accurate reality back to them.  

Sybil: Yes. Yes, yes. Because right, if you write the isolation that happens in relationships where there's domestic violence, and course of control means the only people that are allowed to be around you are the ones that are mirroring back how horrible you are and how you can't do anything right and you're so irresponsible, and your horrible wife, your horrible parent, whatever it might be. And so being around people that you're going to have all of your amazingness mirrored back to you. Is so healing. That could be family and friends, that could be the other parents at the pickup line, that could be teachers, that can be a community like like mine, like Robyn, like there are ways to find those those places for you, right? Because you need to feel safety around your child too, because sometimes these kids don't feel safe to you, right? Their behaviors might feel aggressive. They might be mimicking. You might hear the exact words from that your ex-partner shared like yelled at you when you were together, they're being yelled at you again through your child. And guess that feels not safe, right? Your nervous system's like, Oh, nope. I know what that I know what those words mean, and that yelling and that threatening feel shutting down now or I'm going to start yelling back. And so, yeah, we need all of the safe places for us too as parents.  

Robyn: How do you help that parent not completely collapse into hopelessness and helplessness, like, the sense of like, Oh my gosh. Like, I can't control this. I can't protect my child. I can't protect myself, and my child's eight years old, and I have to do this for a really long time still.  

Sybil: Yeah, you're like, I am counting down the days. We've got 10 years till my child ages out and I don't have to do this anymore. Yeah. And so I think some of it is like being able to see the little moments of progress, being able to find those pockets where you just feel super connected to your child. And that does not mean like, oh, we went on this vacation and it felt so good because they weren't, they didn't have to go back and forth or something like that. It could be you're sitting down with your child, you're feeling nauseous because you're watching them play Minecraft. But they are like, Mom, look at, look, I built this and look, oh, here's a creeper and whatever is going on in the Minecraft world, I get nauseous when I watch my kid play Minecraft. So I it's not my favorite way to connect, but finding those moments, those like 5,10, 15 minute moments where you feel like you feel the connection to like, note and noticing those moments, because I think a lot of times we don't notice them. For sure, yeah, I have a kiddo who is 14, and I am starting to feel the grief that I am not he's not interested in me at all, like, zero and, oh my gosh, it feels so heavy. But then when I have those moments like we're driving in the car and he's actually willingly talking to me, Oh, I'm gonna, like, hold on to those moments, because it, it's like, oh yes, we're still good. We're still connected. He still knows I'm here and that I will always be here for him, you know. And just that, that feeling of connection, so but noticing and being really intentional about, like, noticing how those things feel in your body.  

Robyn: You mentioned grief in a different context, but let's talk about the grief here, because there is so much grief, and I'm imagining too, you know, separating from your partner. And maybe feeling a sense of relief, like, okay, you know, like, now maybe life can take a different turn or something, but then to and then to realize, like, oh, wait, you know, I I'm going to be dealing with this for a really long time, and now I'm dealing with it in a totally different way. I can't really control it. I can't buffer it. I can't not send my kid there. I can't, like, that sense of, I can't protect my kid. And not only can I not protect my kid, when I'm supposed to just sit here and take, essentially, like, some of the abuse that comes my way from my child because of the experience that they're, oh my gosh. It's just so much, and there's so much grief there.  

Sybil: Yeah. And there's, you know, still, even though there's, like, the leaving, you're right, like, you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't, like, if you're a good parent, you leave if you're a good parent, right? Because they're abusive. If you're a good parent, then you're going to co parent with a smile, right? None of that makes sense. Of like you need to leave this person. They are not safe for you, and yet you're going to just be like, Yes, child who does not have the skills I have, does not have the experience I have, you go over there, and I'm supposed to do it with a smile. So there's like, the grief of like, the dream of what was supposed to be, like, the, you know, the false picture that your partner painted for you, of like, this is what our family is going to be, and then it wasn't, and then, like, this is how I get to parent my child, like I get to be this kind of parent, and then you feel like you can't. And so I think just kind of honoring that, and I think anger is where a lot of people get stuck and scared, because angry is not a feeling that a lot of the parents I work with are comfortable with, because it was not safe to be angry, it wasn't safe to show really anything. And so feeling emotions are are really hard, but there is that grief, and you can combat what's going on at the other home by how you show up when you're with them, right? Kids need one safe, unconditional caregiver in their world, and they will build resilience and that they will learn that discernment of like this is how it feels to be with people that are safe. This is how it feels to be with people who are less safe or not as safe, and this shows up right with friends like, do they have good friends, you know, and they're older? Is their boss abusive? Are their coworkers abusive? Is their partner safe to be with? So you're offering them all of those things, but it can feel so difficult when you're dealing with all of the abuse from your ex, because sometimes it gets worse when you separate, and nobody says those things. Everyone's like, escape. But then nobody says like, hey, and it's the abuse is going to continue, but it's going to be different, and it might be worse. Nobody says those things, because the goal is to get people to leave right for, like, safety, safety, but then everyone kind of forgets about the after. And then the other thing that I talk about a lot that shows up with this, really, what you were talking about, is moral injury shows up so strong, and it's not something in our profession, even that is talked about much. It's talked about a lot in the like veteran community, because that's where it shows up, in a way that is really easy to see. But moral injury is when you are doing something that goes against your values, either because there's an authority figure telling you to or you actually don't have a win, right? So maybe you know this person is, like, physically unsafe to your child, like, you know that, like, unfortunately this happens, and they still will have time with your kid, whether it's physical abuse, sexual abuse, it is possible that they will still have 50-50, time with your kid, that's a whole another episode. That's a whole another story. But you have this and so you have the choice, do I send my child there, right? Cuz sending them to a place that you're like, I know it's there. I'm sending them somewhere that's unsafe, or do I withhold my child? The court order says I have to give my child over here. So the ramification of withholding the child is great. It's huge, right? There could be criminal consequences. There could be huge custody shifts and changes. So there is not a win. And so you're acting in a way, not sort of by choice, but that goes complete, completely against everything you value. And so that's one reason why it is so important when you have your kids to parent based on what you value, because it helps kind of combat that piece of it. And then again, your kids benefit from that kind of parenting.  

Robyn: I want to run something by you and tell me if you think I'm way off here, and really truly tell me if you think I am. But you know, I use the language like connection mode versus protection mode quite a bit. And oftentimes, when I'm helping parents kind of discern like responses, we talk a lot about not exactly what you actually do, but do you do it from connection mode, or do you do it from protection mode? And I'm wondering if even that kind of idea is is helpful in any way to to consider like, if I'm facing this decision, I send my child into a situation I know is unsafe or I don't, and then I have the consequences of that, which could be, Well, the obvious ones, but Then also, I'm actually even less protective in the future. Have less capacity to be protective in the future because of what I've lost due to that choice. And to really kind of almost take a breath and actually, like make the choice, as opposed to kind of feeling that sense of, I have no choice, or, like, almost like this, give up sense, like I, you know, but to actually kind of take a breath and just acknowledge, like, both of these choices are terrible. I hate them both. Yeah, if I choose to send my child, I will maintain some, you know, more sense of protectiveness in the future. So even though this is a terrible choice, this is the choice I'm making, and to like, do it with some connectedness to self.   

Sybil: I think, yeah, acknowledging the Wow, both of these choices are are horrible choices. And this is the choice because, and I think too, is if you're focusing on and this is like work that the parent can do it themselves. Is you can show up in those hard places of like the transition, the when your parent, when your kiddo asks, Why do I have to go see this other parent? Why do you make me do this when they don't want to go showing up? Which, wow, so easy to go right into protection mode, because it isn't 100% your choice, right? You're making the best choice given what you've got, but showing up in just that connection and attunement with your child of like, I'm, I'm so sorry. You are. You seem so sad, confused, frustrated, and I wish, I wish I had a like. I wish I had a better answer. I wish I could say, No, you don't have to go, but you can choose to not pick your child up and force them in the car. You can choose to like what that looks like when they transition back to your home, right, so that they they know that there's connection waiting for them, and they know it's not going to be broken. They know like, yes, you might be sad when they leave, right? Yes, you're going to miss them, but the focus for your child shouldn't be protecting you. It's like, I am going to miss you, and I am so excited when in two sleeps, I'm going to see you again, like, of course, I'm going to miss you, but I am going to be so excited to see you again, because you maybe they're they don't feel super unsafe with the other parent. Maybe they can have some good times over there. And so let's allow them to have that too, even though, you it's hard for us to stomach that, yeah, and that's it's right for the child, doing it for the child. So showing up in those hardest moments with connection will help your child, and then it will help you, because then you're going to be like, Okay, I feel really good. I felt that connection. It was hard for me because they were so sad they had to go, but I showed up in a way that my child can count on, and I feel good about.  

Robyn: I have one additional question, and it might be too big of a question for how much time we have left. You know, it's not uncommon for kids to start to internalize some of the perpetrating behavior and then use it back on their parents. And that's a whole thing in and of itself. But then when I think about the parents who come to my community and are really learning about the stress response system, and are really learning about, you know, boundaries versus consequences. And are really, you know, shifting in some ways in which they want to parent and be with their child. And they're thinking about, how do I lower the stress? How do I provide more connection, co-regulation, all that kind of stuff. And then they're trying to figure out how to do that with a child who is behaving in a way that has some of those perpetrator qualities, and navigating this. How do I see this as you know, a stress response behavior and respond with connection and co-regulation, and that starts to get so confusing and murky for everyone. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about that?   

Sybil: Yeah, I think if you do come at it from that understanding the stress response, the nervous system of my child has seen that this works, right? That's and it's gross. When I'm talking about like perpetrators of domestic violence, they typically have a role model. That's a really bad term for it, but someone that they've watched and they saw, Wow, this is how I need to work in my world to get my needs met. So your child has seen potentially like, if like, this is how you can work in your world, and you can get your needs met through manipulation or through threatening behaviors. And so seeing it as like, potentially a learned behavior, and that can also bring up your fight or flight as a parent, because you're like, or freeze, because you're like, oh my gosh, my child is going to be just like my ex. So that is really strong. And there are tons of kids. Like, unfortunately, and I don't even have the numbers, but I think it's one in 15 is the most recent number one in 15 children have witnessed domestic violence in the home. So that's a lot of kids. Not all of those kids turn out to be a victim or an abuser. Like, that's like, the messaging out there like, oh my gosh, they're going to be and no, nope, because if they see another way, they don't have to become that, because they see they can get their needs met a different way. And so it may be right doing your work. Of like, oh, how do I bring myself to a regulated space that I can do the thing so I can interact in a way that is not harmful, and then giving them a different option? Of, like, wow, you like, yelled that at me, and you're really wanting you know this new Xbox game, or you're really feeling like I am supposed to spend this money on you, or what, whatever it might be, who knows? And the way you came at it is, it just made me feel Yuck, like it makes me feel like I don't want to do those things. Is there a different way that you could show up and ask the same thing, right? And if they're really agitated and they're elevated, nope, that's in that moment that's not going to happen. Like, that would be glorious if that could happen. And so it may be like, Hey, let's table this, because we're both feeling XYZ, or we're both showing up in this way, we're so loud, like, we're both really loud together, we can't even hear ourselves, and then let's have that conversation later, because then usually what they're trying to ask you for they need something they is important to them. And so if we just completely like, like, turn that off, like, shut it down, then it's like, oh gosh, she doesn't even realize how important this is to me. So how can we under like, see like this part is important to you? The way you came at it is a no, no, that's not okay. You are taking much easier said than done, though.  

Robyn: Way easier said than done, way easier but you know, I have the benefit of being, of observing you, you know, as you're offering this brilliant example, and I want to, just like, highlight a couple pieces of it for people listening. Is that moment where you said that felt essentially something like that felt yucky for me, which isn't, you can't have. That I'm not going to give it to you, because that felt yucky for me, right? But some sense of like I getting the picture that this is really important to you, how we're going about this is feeling really bad in my body. And then are you? Have you trained with Lisa Dion? Have you trained in synergetic? Because there's that moment then where you essentially said, can you show me another way, which I know that Lisa teaches in her synergetic play therapy work of- and it's not, of course, only unique to Lisa, but I know that that's a big part of you know what she teaches. There is just, I want to know what you're trying to tell me. I want to see what you're trying to show me. But this feels yucky. Can you show me another way? Can you ask another way? Can we get your need met? Another way? And it doesn't all have to come in those exact in that order and with those exact words, but that's kind of, you know, a decent framework to think about. I really hear that you really want this, how you're approaching it is making me feel yucky, and I think that part is so crucial, like identifying that felt sense that's not spoken about. Because first of all, that kid feels yucky all the time, or a lot of, let's say, a lot of the time and doesn't have words for it. So to be able to just put words to your own and they can feel that you feel yucky too. So like that made me feel yucky, though. Can you ask a different way? Can you show me a different way? Can you let me know how badly you want it a different way? And to provide another option as just such a brilliant little framework you gave.  

Sybil: It can be used in all because it may just be that they're, you know, they whale on their sibling, yes, right? And you're like, Whoa, right. Gotta stop, stop the behavior sibling. But then same thing, like, what did they need? Like, what was so important that they needed to punch their sibling, like there was something so important. And for us, it may not be important. It may be like they wanted the Blue cup, right? And like, that's still right. It still boggles my mind. Still boggles my mind, and it is so true, and so it's like being able to stop things, like, slow things down, what is so important to my child about whatever the situation is, and they probably, they may not be able to tell you, and so it's your like, and you can be wrong. I think this is like, what I tell when I'm training play therapist, like in interns, I am like, you are going to get so much more information when you're wrong than when you're right. So be wrong all day long. I'm wrong on purpose some of the times with my kids, because if you're wrong, you'll get like, the face, or they'll be like, No, he blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And you're then you get the information. Oh, that's why that was so important to you. So I think don't fear being wrong, because we're wrong all the time and again, you're gonna get more information when you're wrong than when you're right.   

Robyn: 100% yes. Generally speaking, I feel the same way about kids as well, too. It's like, just guess, like kids are happy to tell you when you get it wrong, like, just see what happens next. And sometimes it's subtle, you know the eye movement, or, you know, a flint, a bracing in their body or something. But generally speaking, kids happy to tell you when you're WRONG. And you said this, but just to also, like, re emphasize to everybody that, like this kind of way of approaching it, especially with so many words, that doesn't work when kids are super escalated, right? Like, anytime we want to start thinking, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? Like, I think it's helpful to kind of go back to the Dr Perry's arousal continuum, which is what my watchdog and possum, you know, framework is based on, which is like, if they're way far down, you can't so you can't use these words, right? It's just not gonna work, right? When they're way far down the continuum. Just try to get some regulation back on board, then we can maybe move into some of those. You know, that made me feel yucky. Can you? Can we go about this in a in a different way? Let's work together. But of course, when kids all the way far down the pathway, yeah, work.  

Sybil: Slow things down. Maybe you'll be able to have the conversation. Maybe you won't be able to have the conversation.   

Robyn: Mm, this has been so helpful. Thank you!  

Sybil: I am glad. I am glad the right that the parents I work with that are in this position are just like reaching right, like trying to find any possible solution. Something that might help, something that will help them retain a relationship with their child. So anything. So the more I can shout it from the rooftops, the better.     

Robyn: I have just so much respect for that being that professional, of which I felt like I've been at times too, which is, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm not giving this up. I'm not giving up on you. Like, I'm not going to be another professional who says I can't help you. You'll have to go find somewhere else. And like, at the very beginning when you said, gasp, I'm a therapist who will sometimes go to court, right? Because there's these kind of red flags that therapists are on the lookout for and that that leads them to saying, like, Nope, sorry, can't help you. Nope, sorry, can't help you. Nope, sorry, can't help you. And there kind of comes a point where, like, well, if I continue to be the nope, sorry, can't help you person, like, Where does this person go next? There's nowhere else. And so I just appreciate so much that, like, you weren't the nope, sorry, can't help you. Person, and you went to figure out what to do, even though it's been imperfect along the way, I'm sure.  

Sybil: And I think too, it's like, I see this all the time, because I do a lot, I do legislative work, I do a lot of advocacy work and things. And it's like, there needs to be some of us who are not survivors, doing this advocacy work? Yes, I completely agree you are tired. Yes, if you have survived this and you keep you have to keep surviving it because of post separation abuse, you're tired. And so I wish we had more professionals who are like, Yes, I'm not triggered the same way that you are triggered. I'm going to stand up and and keep it going when you need to rest.  

Robyn: Yes, I completely agree. So thank you for that. Thank you for the amazing, important, hard, hard, hard work that you're doing that would be easy to say, like, well, sorry, I don't do that.  

Sybil: I don't want to work with them. Like, there's a child therapist, working with both parents. It's a pleasure a lot of times, but it's so important for our kids, so important!  

Robyn: Well, tell folks where they can come and get more of you.   

Sybil: Yeah. So I think probably the best way, especially because if you are in this group of people parents were talking about, trust is actually really hard to give an offer. And so my podcast is a way that you can hear me talk about all the things, and you can decide whether I'm trustworthy. And so that's the rising beyond podcast. You can search us on all the places and then for information kind of what I do, it's RIsingBeyondPC.com, and that is on purpose, because it's rising beyond power and control. And if power and control showed up in your browsing history potentially, and you still are with your abusive partner, then that would be a red flag to them that you're gaining information.  

Robyn: And everyone listening, I'll make sure that they’re clickable links in the show notes, of course, so you don't have to stop everything you're doing and write that all down. We'll make sure you get those links. Well, it's been lovely to chat with you again, always awesome to have a you know opportunity to just get together and spend some time with you. So thank you for coming.  

Sybil: Yeah, thank you so much for having me!