Imperfect Parenting Grows Resilience {EP 46}

Robyn: Welcome back to the Parenting After Trauma podcast. I'm your host, Robyn Gobbel. And I've made it my job to take the science of being relationally socially and behaviorally human and translate that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kind of obsessively, and even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a postgraduate certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention to get you free, accessible support as fast as possible. So this podcast isn't fancy, and I do very little editing. In fact, sometimes you're even going to hear a cockadoodledoo in the background. If you love this episode, add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and definitely share with your friends and colleagues. 

Robyn: You're gonna want to head over to my website and get the free ebook. I've created all about the brilliance of attachment. I took everything from a six part series on attachment that I did in June of 2021 and had it professionally laid out into a free ebook. Watching that series go from words into what honestly feels like a work of art was surprisingly lovely. I hope you'll love it, you can grab that at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. And while you're on my website, you're definitely going to want to check out my calendar of upcoming trainings for both parents and professionals. At RobynGobbel.com/trainings. 

Robyn: Today's episode with Dr. Amy is sponsored by The Club, a virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. Every month, we have a meeting that is called Connect and Co-Regulate and the purpose of it is just that. Parents show up, they spend time with one another giving and receiving connection and co-regulation. And y'all sometimes I just can't even, it is so overwhelming to be a part of this amazing community. The way they bravely show up for each other and- and themselves has exceeded what I even ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen and be gotten and understood, we would love to have you in The Club. The Club will open for new members in the fall, we open approximately every three months. And so at this point, we're looking at welcoming new members, late September, early October. If you head to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list. 

Robyn: So Now without any further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Amy Stoeber. Amy and I met when we were both instructors and a postgraduate certificate program that trained mental health providers to be better supports for foster and adoptive families. But this is one of the first times where we really just got to talk and go deep. I really enjoyed this conversation with Amy. And I hope you do too. Here we go. 

Robyn: Amy, I'm just so grateful that you have found a way to find some time in your schedule that, especially with our timezone difference, that we could connect and I'd have the opportunity to introduce you to my audience. So thank you so much for being here today. 

Dr. Amy Stoeber: Oh my gosh, me too. I know. We're both crazy busy. So it's- this is fun. Thank you. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes. So tell everybody listening just about you in the work that you do. 

Amy: Yeah, thanks. So I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I have a private practice out here in just outside of Portland, Oregon, and see kids and families birth to 21, often around trauma, attachment, stress, and then a variety of other things. And when I'm not doing that, I'm training. I'm training teachers and medical providers around how to recognize stress and trauma. And then their big question which is like now I know that there's trauma that's occurred or stress that's happening for this child, what do I do about it? And that's really where my passion is, is helping build strong, thriving families and resilient children. 

Robyn: I love that I know we have so many common passions and interests, but then these different ways in which we deliver our passions and interests to the world are a little bit different. And I think that that's really neat as well. You and I met because we, for a short period of time, we were both teaching inside a certificate program for mental health professionals with adoption and foster care lens. And so although I, you don't necessarily consider that your dominant area of expertise, right? Adoption, foster families, I just want to make clear to my listeners that like you absolutely know these families, and you know their needs and are so committed to like- like I am, like helping other professionals get to know these families and know their needs. So I'm really grateful for that. 

Amy: Yeah, well, and with the work with foster and adoptive families, you know, there is a really a core of trauma that either has occurred, or rupture in attachment that's occurred, and then a whole bunch of rebuilding. And that's really everything that I do and teach. And so it's a wonderful compliment and, you know, as we were kind of teaching this course, in parallel worlds, Robyn, I just kept hearing over and over. “Oh, my gosh, you should meet Robyn, she's amazing. The two of you do so much similar work”. So it's really fun to be able to talk. 

Robyn: Yeah, I completely agree. So let's talk today about resilience. Because, you know, luckily, like the trauma informed world, air quotes, trauma informed world has begun kind of shifting, I think the conversation in the last couple years. I think there's still so much to do and a lot of momentum to build behind that. But from kind of shifting the focus from, like, what's wrong with you? Right, there's real heavy focus on trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, to acknowledging the trauma. I mean, I absolutely we need to acknowledge, and validate, and give lots of space, and- and time to that experience, while also kind of holding at the same time, right, this way of holding the both and, of kind of and- now what? Resilience and the topic around resilience, a conversation on resilience kind of feels like that next, okay. Now what? Where does the trauma informed conversation begin to move- begin to move into? Would you agree that kind of the topic of resilience feels like the next place we're going from personal trauma informed care? 

Amy: Absolutely. And I think, you know, there's better movement in, you know, recognizing and identifying what adverse childhood experiences are, which maybe a lot of people in your audience recognize and know what those are, to broadening even the definition of those things that create trauma for kids and families, to being just more broadened trauma informed. But I was in a meeting yesterday, Robyn, where they- I love the phrase they use, they said, “instead of summing the suffering, let's build the buffering”. 

Robyn: So okay, let's say that again, instead of some suffering, right? 

Amy: So kind of adding up tallying up all these aces or discriminants of poor outcomes of health later on. Why don't we instead work on what you and I in the mental health field have known forever: build resilience, build thriving families, build what other people might call, like through Dr. Robert Segue’s, positive health outcomes. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: The building of buffering, right? Those buffering environments, experiences, situations and people that can really mitigate or decrease the effects of trauma. 

Robyn: Yes. I love that instead of summing the suffering. Let's focus on building the buffering. 

Amy: Yeah, yeah. Because I think and especially I think about the parents that you work with Robyn, you know, you have this child who's experienced maybe extreme trauma or trauma on many levels, and maybe even acute trauma as they're transitioning to a forever home, into a safe space. And we can look and feel like the trauma or the adversity is like this sentence for their long term health or their long term outcome. But there is countless, thousands amounts of research articles in data that says that is corollary not causal, and we can intervene and the sooner we intervene and the more regulated spaces that we intervene with in these safe, supportive, nurturing adults that are in children's lives. We actually mitigate the effects of trauma. We build more resilient beings. 

Robyn: Yes, yes. Well, let's talk about how that- how is that done? I mean, I heard you talk about relationship. But yeah, let's get- let's get specific. What-what? 

Amy: So let's- can I circle back for just a second to resilience, right? 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: So even in the work that I'm doing right now, there's almost this- this kind of push back to the word resilience, right? Anytime we use a word over, and over, and over, it kind of gets overused, over promoted. And so resilience is sometimes defined as the ability to bounce back. I don't love that definition because I think if you talk to someone who's gone through trauma, and I- I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, I don't think they would say, “gosh, I'm just a pretty bouncy person, I just bounce back all the time”. When I talk to survivors, most of the trauma victims that I work with are survivors of sexual trauma, and extreme physical abuse, contentious divorce, what they will say is, I don't feel like a rubber ball that can bounce back. I feel like I'm able to overcome hardship, and challenges, and kind of reframe it as a lesson that I've learned as something that's happened in my life that I've decided to gain strength from, versus being overwhelmed by it. And so when I talk about my working definition of resilience, I say that resilience is the ability to overcome and face challenges and be strengthened versus defeated by them. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. 

Amy: And then I usually ask whomever I'm working with, whether it's an individual or a family or an audience, how would you define resilience? Because I think it's really within, you know, kind of like in the eye of the beholder? 

Robyn: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Amy: What resilience is for you. The other thing I would say about resilience is I never want an individual to feel like they have to be resilient to overcome trauma.

Robyn: Right.

Amy: Systems, and families, and supportive relationships help build that resilience also. I never want someone who's already gone through so much to feel like, well, now that works all on you get resilient, right? Have a more positive mindset. I never want that. So I really want people to hear resilience is kind of this internal ability to overcome challenges, and finding environments, and people that help kind of perpetuate those feelings of resilience and strength. 

Robyn: Yes, I love that. I worked with a moms group once many, many, many years ago. And at the very beginning, we kind of set our- it was a nine month group, and we set our kind of intentions in a way for the- for our time together. And the question I asked them was what-, you know, if you could choose and outcome at the end of our time together, how do you want to feel? And one of the moms, I'll never forget this, she- one of the words she chose are several, but one of the words that she chose was buoyant. She wanted to be able to- because she was wise enough to know that nothing about the work we're doing in the moms group was going to directly change the chaos that was happening in her home. And she knew that, right? Like she didn't show up hoping that somehow we were all going to make things better in her home. She wanted to have more capacity to be and the word she chose was buoyant. And I always kind of go back to that imagery when I think about resilience. It's- it's not- especially if we're going to talk about resilience post-trauma, and I'm not saying that I'm right. So I'm like curious here just because we're having a conversation, like your thoughts on this. Like, I try to almost kind of separate the two because I hate to ever give the impression to anybody that like resilience is this like, quote unquote worth it byproduct of trauma. You know, like, because I've been trauma, I can go through hard things, which I don't think is even neuro physiologically accurate. It feels a little bit kind of gaslighting, and minimizing, and a little bit of toxic positivity. 

Amy: Absolutely. 

Robyn: So I think of resilience as more like, like from this moment forward, or in this moment how can I- like what are things that are within my reach that I could use to kind of almost like bolster my nervous system? That gives me just a little more buoyancy like a little more of that like- like, yes, hard things are going to happen. Is it possible to increase, kind of, the riding the wave of the hard things?

Amy: That’s right.

Robyn: [overlapping conversation] -crashed by the tsunami. 

Amy: Exactly, and I love that even as you say that, if that's that person's story, I can picture this buoyant thing, right, in the water, yeah, it's kind of move with the flow of things. That's why I think it's so powerful to ask people to define it for themselves, right? That kind of guided imagery, right, or symbolism. I had a survivor of sexual assault, say that to her, resilience kind of felt like being a paperclip. And she said before this really extensive trauma, she knew what her job was, she knew what her purpose was, like she was a paperclip. She just would hold things together. Right?

Robyn: Okay. Okay. 

Amy: And then, through the process of what she went through, she became reshaped, reformed. And she said, sometimes my family wants me to be the paperclip again. But I'm never going to be the paperclip again. And to her what she said resilience meant is that she was reshaped and reformed by the trauma, but didn't lose sight that she still had strength and purpose. 

Robyn: Yes, absolutely.

Amy: She was no longer the paperclip, she's a bit- now I can like pick a lock, and I can be a straight edge. And I can be like this defense mechanism if I needed to with a, you know, a sharp edge. But I'm not. I'm not the paperclip anymore. And I'm part of my experience, I have to integrate this trauma, which I appreciate what you said, right? We don't want resilience to be this like, oh, you get the bonus byproduct of going, no, we'd rather not happen to us. 

Robyn: Absolutely, yeah. And it doesn't need to happen to people, right, for people to develop resilience, I think that sometimes that gets a little lost too. There are other ways to build resilience in the nervous system without subjecting people to terrible, terrible traumas of course. 

Amy: Yes! And in fact, that's what we want for all families. We want every single child to have a skill set and a space and environments that build resilience for them, regardless of trauma, right? They don't have to have gone- had gone through a traumatic incident. It's just that the reframe on it for people, we don't want them to feel like oh, and by the way, let's just focus on the positivity, no way. Right? What I think both of those stories show with the buoyancy and the paperclip is I can overcome I can not be blown away by the tsunami or, you know, I am reshaped by this. And so how do I find from that moment purpose, determination, a story that I can integrate into myself and go from- from there. And there are millions of kids and families who also need to build resilience that haven't had a background of trauma. But- but we all have to experience- we all experience stress. And we all experience hardship, regardless of whether or not it was what someone might define as a traumatic experience. And so therefore, having an internal sense of resilience of what strengthens you, of what helps you overcome and face challenges is important to be able to recognize and label. 

Robyn: Absolutely, yeah, yeah. So when we're thinking about kids, and- and you can go whichever way you want. Do you want to talk about first kids who haven't had, you know, extreme experiences of trauma or kids who have? And then think about resilience, how do we build resilience? How do we- and there's a part of you, that is even like that language, build resilience, it feels just way too-

Amy: Prescriptive.

Robyn: Mechanical. Yeah, like, there's this thing that, you know, so how do we bolster buoyancy? I just made that up. [laughs] 

Amy: Build the buffering, right?

Robyn: Build the buffering, yeah!

Amy: How do we build the buffer? And I would- I would say, and please disagree with me, that whether a child has had a traumatic background or traumatic experiences or not, it's the same things that create buffering. What I would say to the parents of yours that are listening is that for kids who do have a background that includes trauma, it makes that work that much more difficult. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Amy: So I want to acknowledge that. And the things that we know that are good for kids that build the buffering are the same things that are good for all kids. Right?

Robyn: Yes, right.

Amy: So I think I wrote down like, four things that, you know, you can look at so many different models around resilience building, right? You know, Ginsburg. Ken Ginsburg talks about the seven C's of resilience. And, you know, there's the 40 developmental assets and Castle has, like, you know, resilience inventories. But as someone who's worked with kids and families, you know, for 20 plus years, I kind of wrote down. Okay, I think first they need safe, stable, nurturing relationships. 

Robyn: Yeah. Right. 

Amy: Consistent people in their lives and we know from decades of research that it just takes one just one loving adult in their life who is there and present. In fact, if we look at the work now, as we're shifting away from focusing on the adversities to focusing on the buffering, if you look at the work of Dr. Robert Segue, he talks about these positive health outcomes. And he asks a series of seven questions, one of which is, did you have an adult in your life, someone outside of your family who was interested and loved you? Right. So- so I think that's what the first thing that that all children need safe, stable, nurturing relationships. And then within those relationships, I think there are two things that, you know, I'm sure you get this question, too. You know, like, what's the one thing that, like, if you could only teach one thing? You know, the first one for me, always Robyn, is unconditional love. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: And when I do talks for parents, whether it's in my office with a parent, or in front of hundreds of parents, when I talk about, you know, what I think are three things that are core assumptions around parenting, unconditional love, that, you know, kids learn, because we're their primary role models, and that they can rise up to our levels of expectations when they're in safe- safe boundaries. We get stuck on unconditional love for a long time. And it's really because so many adults haven't experienced that themselves. 

Robyn: Right. Right. Yeah, it's such a- it's a- yeah, even just like talking about right now, like fumbling my words, right? Because it's- it moves into this category of like- like, what's the definition of that? It's a felt sense. And if you don't have the felt sense, how do you begin to talk about it, to find it, offer it? 

Amy: So- so here's what I tell parents. Unconditional love is our ability to separate relationship from behavior. Right? So, you know, kids do dumb stuff all the time. [laughs] Really great kids do stuff, take risks. And all of it's within developmental appropriateness, right? Like, they're just doing what kids need to do to test boundaries. It's a way of communicating. Like that behavioral piece is something that we, you know, respond to, and I know you do tons of work with parents around, like, how do we respond to the behavior that we see. And when we can separate that from our relationship with the child, then we create a space for unconditional love. Because what we're saying is, you know, no matter what you do over here, if I know your people can't see me, I'm holding up kind of two hands like weights, right? Like in one hand, here's all the behavior that's really, really difficult. And on the other hand, here is the relationship. And so if we can focus on the one hand and say like, okay, this is the behavior that's really difficult, we have to figure out how we're going to respond to the behavior. And this over here, this relationship piece in the other hand, it doesn't go away. It doesn't change. I don't go anywhere. That's like the safest space we want people to be in. 

Robyn: Yeah. Right. 

Amy: Because, my goodness, I mean, like I think about myself, like, I do lots of quirky things that might annoy people or tick them off or, right? And I have to hope that the people around me, who are my primary attachment relationships, if you will, aren't going anywhere, right? They'll give me the benefit of the doubt that like that was just like a tough day for Amy, or a tough moment, or whatever the case may be, but the relationship doesn't change. And to me, that's how we begin to build unconditional love. I love you, no matter what. I'm here for you, no matter what. You're gonna do these things and engage in these behaviors that are going to push and challenge, right? Who I think I am Who you think you are developmental appropriateness, like we're going to sometimes feel spun out, and confused, and worried, and overwhelmed about the behavior? Yes. What I always am clear about is us. Yeah, not going anywhere. I love you. I'm your person. And I think the hardest part about teaching the concept of unconditional love is for adults that have never experienced it. Because, as I, you know, I was- I think about this- this large auditorium, I was speaking to one time, about unconditional love. And a woman approached me afterwards. And she had two biological children, and was fostering to adopt two children as well. And she said to me, Amy, I don't know, if- if I'm showing them unconditional love. How do I know? How do I know? And I just said to her, you know, well, what brought you to fostering, you know, two more children, and, you know, and you have your, you know, two biological children as well. And she expressed to me that she had gone through the foster system as well. And that she never wanted a child to feel like they were disposable. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. 

Amy: And I said, that's it, you're doing it. You're doing it. Like, sometimes we have to name it for people, like you're bringing children into your home, you're having children, you're creating the safe environment where you- where they know that no matter what, they're not going to be thrown out or tossed out. And that was her words, not my words. Right? And as soon as I said that, and I looked at her, I said, by the way, loving your child unconditionally, doesn't mean that you always like them. [laughs] It doesn't mean that you always like their behavior. It doesn't mean they pull your hair out sometimes as a parent, and she just got these huge tears. And I said, you know, it's not about like being a perfect parent, right? It's about knowing that no matter what, for your children, you're not going anywhere you'll- and she was like, of course I'm not. And that to her was like, that was primal. I'm not going anywhere. And I said that's unconditional love. So sometimes it's just a matter of- of talking it through with the person enough so that they can embrace the definition. But I think it's so hard if we haven't experienced that feeling. 

Robyn: Yeah, I- it's making me think of- a couple of things are coming to mind. One is of all- after a bajillion dollars and many, many, many years of extremely intensive therapy, one of the things I remember so clearly that I learned from my therapist was so off the cuff. Which was just a chuckle of a moment where she said to me, look, like, people are annoying, like, all people are annoying. You're annoying. I'm annoying. Sometimes I'll be annoyed with you. Sometimes you'll be annoyed with me. Like, that's just like a part of being human. And, of course, there was a moment of well, yeah, duh. Yes. But there also was this, like, kind of thunking moment for me, which is like, yeah, like, I don't have to try to aim to be perfect in order to be like, welcomed in relationships. And also, it's okay, if the people that I love are sometimes annoying, and I'm annoyed with them. [laughs] Because people are just annoying, like all people. Yeah. Right. And then you add in, you know, that for the- the- primarily the parents that I work with and connect with, because if they're, you know, was parenting, not only had like, these really hard things happened to them, but they're relationally hard things happen. And so they've had their, like, relational system impacted. So the thing that's supposed to be soothing, right, and regulating, which is connection and relationship pulls both directions for these kids, right? Like pulls like, yeah, yeah, I want connection or relationship, because I know it will help me feel better. But no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want it. I don't want it at all. And so when parents- and it's why I spent so much time teaching the theory. And I think at times, that can frustrate people because they're like, just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do. So I try to do both. I definitely try to do both. But this piece that you're saying, for me goes together so completely, which is when I can und- what I can make sense of somebody's behavior, whether I just chalk it up to you like, well, sometimes people are annoying. Okay. Or, well, my child's like attachment trauma is contributing to this extremely bizarre behavior in which it appears as though they're trying to convince me the last thing they want is connection, right? If I can make sense of that behavior, that helps me shift back into this place that you're calling unconditional love. I can separate the child from the behavior. I can separate myself from it, like then it doesn't feel personal to me, right? And then that feels like I come back to, again, like what you're describing as this place of like, unconditional love. I can separate you from your behavior. That also means I can set a boundary about it.

Amy: That’s right, absolutely.

Robyn:  I think it's easier to set boundaries when we're in this place of compassion.

Amy: Yep. That's right. 

Robyn: Right? But I love this- this whole kind of all fits back into, like, if I can change how I see my child's behavior, I can so much more solidly anchor into this place of unconditional love. And then bring us back too. That is such a huge component of resilience. 

Amy: Well, and let me weave in some more of your work, because I told you before we started that- that I was listening to your attachment series in one thing I love, love, love about what you said is hope versus expectation. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I mean, like, how many moments do you experience that on a given day? Right? 

Robyn: Lots. 

Amy: Like, I literally can think of two this morning, right? It's like only eight o'clock, by the way here where I live.

Robyn: [laughs] yeah, it’s early!

Amy: And I can think of two examples this morning of like, how I acted, and how I wanted someone to respond to me versus the message I put out about how, like, I put out a message this morning to the- to my fiancé whom I love more than anything in a whole world “of don't approach me”. And what I wanted more than anything in the world was him to approach me.

Robyn: Of course. 

Amy: Right? But- but it comes from fear, it comes from terror. And I think this idea of- of recognizing the behavior with the lens of compassion, recognizing that the- that the hope is for all of us unconditional regard, right? Hey, I see you, I see you. I'm not going anywhere. You look loud, or mad, or angry, or grumpy, or crunchy, or you're pushing me away, you're acting defiant. And I know that what I hold for both of us is that we want connection and love. Yes. And if- if- if you can't hold that right now, I'm gonna hold it for you. And if I can't hold it right now, I'm going to take a break and come back to it. Right? But it's not going anywhere. And I think the more we ground ourselves in that through lots of different terms, right? Like the hope versus expectation, unconditional love, felt sense. It's just creating these spaces where we're recognizing for the people that we love, that sometimes their behaviors, woo, are going to really challenge that. 

Robyn: I’m like, yeah, no, kidding. Yeah. And I love how even in this moment, like, there's space, too, for self compassion. Right, then instead of judging, you know, like, why did I act that way? Why did I do that thing? Or, you know, like, there's a space to just look at it clearly, like I really wanted, you know, to be approached, but I was giving off behaviors of stand back. So of course, the other person doesn't exactly know what to do. 

Amy: And can I say, by the way, I have a PhD in this and 22 years experience. So how would I expect that an eight year old would do a better job than I can do? Right? 

Robyn: Absolutely.

Amy: That's the compassion I have for parents and for children. It's like, if I don't get this right all the time as somebody who knows it, lives it, breathes it, reads it, listens to it. How do I expect the parents that I love and work with the children that they love and work with that they sometimes feel turmoil with? They're not going to get it right all the time, either. So just giving ourselves grace around these issues. And like you said, self compassion, that we're not always gonna get it right. That's okay, too. 

Robyn: Well, not only are we not going to get it right, but we don't have to. 

Amy: That's right. Yeah. 

Robyn: There's so much opportunity in these like, quote, unquote, mess ups. These moments of imperfection, right? And so let's talk about that. Like, how does these moments of imperfection, how does that tie into the topic of resilience? 

Amy: Yeah, so I want to say this. I kind of alluded to this before we started recording, and that is, you know, I've worked with kids, and families, and systems, and organizations for a long time. I have yet to meet a child or an adult who was once a child who said to me, “I'm a resilient person because my parents were perfect all the time”. 

Robyn: Right.

Amy: [laughs] Or, you know what I turned out okay because everything in my life was perfectly lined up all the time. 

Robyn: [laughs] Exactly. 

Amy: Or because my parents never made mistakes. They never yelled at me. They never lost their cool, right? I mean, like, that just doesn't happen. And I think, you know, often I'm sure this happens to you to Robyn, you know, I'm working with a family and they'll say, you know, like, oh my gosh, it must be so nice to have you as a mom. And I'm like, it’s not actually! [overlapping conversation] Exactly. You can survey my children, and then you might not come to me for advice anymore. But truly, right? As parents, nobody comes with a guidebook. Every child is different. Every child has their own neurodiversity. Every child has their own presentation, background, and then we add into the fold our own experiences as adults with our own attachment backgrounds, and then our, if we're with a partner, with our partners, right? So it's all these like complex interactions that come together at 6:07 at night, when you're trying to make dinner, and your kids need help with homework, and the dog is barking, and you lose it. Yeah. Right. And you yell at your kids when you wish you wouldn't or you lose your temper, or you say things that are regrettable. And what I tell parents all the time is ruptures are going to happen in relationships. There in fact, is no- this was like a- want to talk about mutual vulnerability sharing Robyn like therapy that I had to do. I was like, eyes wide open when a therapist said to me one time did you know there is absolutely no relationship that is loving that doesn't have anger in the intimacy? I was like, what? What? Stop it! I was like, no, anger means imperfection. Anger means we're done. Anger means like, this relationship isn't healthy. And he was like, no, excuse me. Anger, frustration, resentment- I mean, like all of those feelings that we label as, quote unquote, bad are intimate feelings. You can't be in an intimate relationship, and by intimate, we don't mean sexual, obviously, we mean like, close, right? We have intimate relationships with our kids without feeling anger and frustration and overwhelm. And the question isn't whether or not it will happen. The question is, how will you repair it? 

Robyn: Yes. I love that. Let's just say I like to anchor things and that is a question isn't, is it going to happen? Right? Anger, yelling, losing it? Right. Right? The question is, how are you going to repair it when it happens? 

Amy: That's right. Yeah, how are you going to repair? That is- that is it, right? And time and time again, kids and parents and families that I work with that have practiced repair, that is part of what builds wellness. That's what part- that's the part that builds resilience, right? Because you're able to look back at a situation and create a narrative where you say, you know, to your child, gosh, you know, Sophia, I was really in a space where I was stressed and thinking about 5 million things. And then you asked me a question, and I lost it, and I was really loud, and that that was really scary for you. And I bet it felt like I just wasn't there for you in that moment. And, you know, I kind of use this narrative approach when I- when when I mess up with my own kids and need to repair and when I teach families to do this, which is just objectively state the narrative. This is what happened, objectively state the feelings that were likely present, and then stay in the space of curiosity, what was that like for you? Right? And often the child will say, you know, that was horrible. That was scary, or you were big, or mad, or angry, and I felt scared and overwhelmed. Or- or maybe the child just doesn't say anything. And you just narrate the space for them. And then you say, right, I can't promise that will never happen again. But what I will promise is, I will keep working on managing my feelings and circling back to you and checking in with you. And I'm sorry that this happened to us. And can we try again? Right, like, how can we re enter and what do you need right now? Like, I don't think we should ever give a superfluous apology. But I think we can say what do you need right now? Do you need space? Do you need to hug? Do you need time? Do we need to write? Do we need to walk? Do we need to eat? Like, what do you need right now that can help us rejoin again? And that is what builds resilient relationships, right? Because the pressure should never, you know, be on a person to be resilient, right? Yes, in the context of relationship, right. And so that's what builds a resilient relationship too, a thriving relationship when you have ruptures that will inevitably happen and you make repair. 

Robyn: Yes. So I also- I love talking about rupture repair, I think it has given me so much soothing and grounding like just in my life. You know, it really- permission to stop the completely impossible task of trying to be perfect. And to talk about rupture repair so much we did a whole month on rupture repair in The Club a couple months ago and really looked at like, what does it- what does it even mean? Why is it important? And I think some of my favorite things about rupture repair, there's so many, but one, it's a learnable skill.

Amy: Yes!

Robyn: And two, it can be scaffolded, right? Like, I have worked with families who have, because of their own histories of not being seen and then the vulnerability that is so implicit in rupture and repair, you know, and it really initiating repair is so vulnerable that it just feels impossible, you know. And that is like, okay, we can tackle that. Like, it is a scaffold it- like we can scaffold repair, like maybe you can send your kid a text. Maybe, you know, maybe the next time, this is my favorite one who thinks they're easy- maybe the next time you stop and get gas, you grab their favorite candy, and you set it on their desk, and maybe it doesn't even yet come with an overt I regret that that happened. Maybe it's just a gesture. And then we'll just- start- we'll start with wherever you are, yeah, of being able to initiate repair, and will take teeny tiny baby steps to scaffold. So I mean, I just- I love that it's teachable, I love that it's, you know, something that can be scaffolded. And even out while you were talking, the other thing that pops into my mind is, this has got to be true for you, too. Like I've worked with so many adults in the therapeutic space, who are working really hard at parenting differently than they were parented. 

Amy: Yes. 

Robyn: And almost all of them have in some way, shape, or form articulated, that even if my parent, the parent that I had, never had any behavior change in my relationship with them, even if they had even done anything that had acknowledged they knew things were not good between us, or done any- made any attempts at any way, shape or form to make or even the slightest little bit of repair how profoundly impactful they believe that would have been for them to just be seen. Right? They didn't say I needed my parents to be- to not have done any of the terrible things that, you know, that's that they aren't saying that. They're saying, if they could have just acknowledged-

Amy: Just a little bit

Robyn: -that they noticed, right, that's what repair does.

Amy: That’s right. They noticed. I see you. I see that I've created some pain for you. I regret it, and I want to repair it, and I want to be with you again. Yes. Incredible. Yeah. And I think parents often get to this space where they know what they're doing doesn't feel good. But they don't know what else to do. Right? And that feels really overwhelming. And that's why we go back to kind of default, you know, behaviors that we don't love to engage in as parents, me included. 

Robyn: Right? Oh, yeah. I was gonna say me too. Yeah. Yep, for sure.

Amy: Absolutely, yeah. Oh, well, gosh, this has been wonderful. Just so wonderful. And the, you know, idea of resilience is such an important thing to talk about. But also talk about in a way, like I said, that it's so easy to talk about resilience and move into this sort of toxic positivity realm. 

Amy: I agree.

Robyn: And so you know, to talk about it by being able to embrace kind of the both and, and then to really give so much hope about, you know, if we're going to- if we're going to recognize that such an important path towards resilience is relationship, we also want to make sure we're soothing ourselves that we're not, you know, giving ourselves an expectation that's not possible, right? We don't get relationship and offering relationships for our kids has nothing to do with perfection or never messing up or being anything except for your human self, which is sometimes annoying. [laughter]

Amy: What's the percentage you tell parents, Robyn? I tell them like 70% of the time be good enough.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I think this is such a fascinating question. Because you know, like Tronic’s work is shows that like, we have to be attuned to our kids about 30 ish percent of the time and the rest of it is rupture repair. Well repair is attuning. So I mean, if you look at it, like, enact those like 30%, 30%, 30% thing like. Yeah, like, 30% you're getting it right. 30% you're repairing when you messed up. [laughs] So yeah, the rest of it is just life.

Amy: Just life, doing the best we can and messing it up and knowing that, you know, if we have this space where we're all trying together, right, and we have this mutual goal of me-, you know, to use your language living to the hope, you're aspiring to the hope of what we want, which is connection, then, you know, we're gonna mess up, but we're gonna mostly get it right. 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for, one, getting up early. [laugh] You're really early Portland- Portland time. Tell folks, you know, if they want to go and see more about the work that you're doing, and especially like this, this goal you have of reaching more, you know, providers and professionals, where can they- where can they find you? 

Amy: Yeah, so you can check out my website. It's Doctor Amy LLC. Doctor spelled out DoctorAmyLLC.com. On Instagram, I'm @DoctorAmyLLC,on Facebook. I'm @DoctorAmyLLC. So in all the places that's where I'm at, awesome. And I'll make sure y'all that are listening, if you check out the show notes for this podcast, there will be live links there. But I've also started making, like blog posts summaries of all of my guest interviews. So if y’all want to head over to my blog, you'll see a nice kind of summary of this interview with me and Amy, and there'll be live links there too. So y'all, if you can't remember Amy's website, you'll be able to find it and click through to it really easily. 

Amy: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Robyn, and thanks for all the work you're doing in the world. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah, thank you for- thank you for saying that. And thank you for you too. And it's been just really lovely the way our lives have intersected. And, you know, we just keep learning more about each other and getting to know each other more and more. I can't wait to do it again!

Amy: You too. Okay. Thanks. 

Robyn: Thanks. Gosh, didn't you love that I just can't stop thinking about how it's time to stop focusing on summing the suffering. And how can we do that while still absolutely honoring the suffering that has happened and the impact that it had? It's really lovely to consider the truth that both can be true. Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. I'm really, really grateful for you, thank you for your commitment to kids, and to families, and to making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationship. I'll see you next week.