Bonnie Badenoch on Healing Attachment with Safety & Presence {EP 40}

Robyn: Oh my gosh, I am truly just so so so so, so excited to introduce you to my mentor and my friend, Bonnie Badenoch and to wrap up this month’s exploration into attachment. I’m Robyn Gobbel and welcome to the Parenting After Trauma podcast, where I take the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human, and translate that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively, and even teach the science of interpersonal neurobiology and a certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention to get free, accessible support to you as fast as possible. So the podcast isn’t fancy, and I do very little editing. Sometimes you'll even hear a cockadoodledoo in the background. If you love this episode, please add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and share with your friends and colleagues. You're definitely gonna want to head over to my website and get the free ebook I just created and published all about the brilliance of attachment. I took everything from this month's six part series on Attachment, had it professionally laid out, and put into a gorgeous free ebook. Watching this series go from my words into what feels like a work of art was surprisingly lovely. I think you'll love it too. Other people have said it's just gorgeous. RobynGobbel.com/ebook and then while you're on my website, you're definitely going to want to check out The Club. A virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma and the professionals who support them. 

Robyn: Earlier this month, I released a brand new feature in The Club. All of The Club content: masterclasses, Q&As, guest presenters, everything that happens in The Club on live video now has the audio uploaded into a private podcast just for Club members. Which has been a huge hit, it's making accessing all The Club content so much easier. The Club opens for new members on June 29th through July 6th. Which might be right now depending on when you're listening to this podcast. If you love this month’s look at attachment, you'll definitely love what's in store for you in The Club in the coming months. 

Robyn: For attachment to truly change, it really needs to move from what I would call left brain learning. Like we've been doing here where I'm teaching and you're taking in information into a more embodied whole brain experience. That fast happens in a dynamic active group. Because as you'll hear in this episode, attachment shifts when we receive what we needed. To be seen, safe, soothe, and secure. This is exactly how my work with Bonnie shaped me. And even though the club is virtual, we get to do this for each other.  Have experiences of being seen, safe, soothe, and secure. And then we can offer that to our kids. One Club member told me she has never felt so seen. Another said they're thinking more and more and more about self compassion, which is a huge win in my book. Another member said that the amount of information and support in The Club is tremendous. And a professional member of The Club told me that they wish all of their clients were in The Club so she could just keep referring them back to all the amazing content and support.

Robyn: We sure would love for you to see for yourself just how amazing all The Club members are. You can read all about The Club and register between June 29th and July 6th at RobynGobbel.com/TheClub. If you're hearing this podcast at some time in the- in the future, you can still head over to the website RobynGobbel.com/TheClub and add yourself to the waiting list. We welcome new members approximately every three months and if you're on the waiting list, you'll get an email and an update about when that is.

Robyn: Alright y’all, so today's podcast interview is truly like a bit of a dream come true for me. Bonnie Badenoch is a thought leader in the relational neurosciences. When I think about her contribution to this emerging field of study, I think integrator. Bonnie has helped us all feel, into the many different strands that are woven together, to become what we now call relational neuroscience. The strands of interpersonal neurobiology, affect regulation theory, polyvagal theory, memory reconsolidation theory, attachment theory and more. Bonnie has taken the science and created space for clinicians and helpers, to make meaning of how the science comes alive in us, and in our work with clients. Bonnie knows the science of relationship better than anyone I know. But more than that, she knows relationships. She's been an integral part of my own journey. Without Bonnie there certainly would not have been as attachment series, or the brilliance of attachment ebook, or, y'all, in a way maybe that anything that I'm doing in the world right now, especially The Club, I learned what I needed to know, in order to create a space like The Club, in relationship with Bonnie. Bonnie has been my primary mentor as a therapist. And now just so, so, so lucky to call her a colleague and a friend. Everybody meet Bonnie.

Robyn: Bonnie, thank you so, so much for giving us your time this morning. I mean, thank you so much for everything you've done with me and for me. My- feels like my whole life. It hasn't been my whole life, but sometimes it feels that way. Which we'll explore and talk about a little bit today. But yes, thank you so much for being here today and getting to introduce you to my people. 

Bonnie Badenoch: Well, that's wonderful, Robyn. And I mean, you are a dear friend of mine, and colleague, and just- so you so warm my heart. So I'm delighted to be here and have this conversation. Thank you for inviting me. 

Robyn: Yeah, me too. So this episode is going to air at the end of this month long series on attachment, in which I imagine many people had that urge to shift how they were experiencing attachment, and maybe a slightly new way. As I have learned all of this from you, and our experience together. And of course, my own amazing therapist about just- just shifting the way we look at attachment to this way of, like, these are such beautiful, remarkable, brave, heroic adaptations in the way we figure out how to be with other people in a way that gets our needs met the best way possible. So my reader- or my listeners, you know, they're, they're getting familiar with this idea. And because I learned this from you, I wanted to bring you on and- and share the source with them. And also wanted to give them an- a look into where the practical side of things, right? Because that's always everyone's question like, “okay, what would you really do with this?” or “how does it really look in- in real life”? And I talked a lot in the series that both- it can be true, both that way we adapted is so brilliant and so protective, and that there still can be this felt sense of something that was missing. And so how can- how can both- both be true? And then what do we do about that? 

Bonnie: Right? Right? Well, I think that's true, because the adaptations that we make are brilliant, they're protective. And I think it's so helpful as we're working with people around these losses of attachment, that they not feel like there's something wrong with them. 

Robyn: Yes!

Bonnie: It's not pathological. It's not that they did something that was hurtful, it was the best that they could do. So if you're in a really traumatic situation, whether that's one of neglect where nobody notices you're there, or it's one of abuse. There's still ways we have to leave ourselves in order to adapt, and also the core need to be connected to in a warm way. Steve Porges says connection is a biological imperative. And when that's not possible, and we have to leave many parts of ourselves in the dust because of- of having to not bring parts of ourselves present that are going to make things worse in some way for us. Of course, there's still this enormous ache to be met, and to be heard, and to be warmed, and cared for, and- and not judged, but understood. And so when we have people around us, whether that's a therapist, whether those are friends, family, whoever it might be, that really receives us the way we are and can just listen to us and hold us. Some of that missingness that we feel inside where there's this ache and this need to have somebody be really with us in all of our different shadings begins to be met. And so there can be a tremendous amount of healing that happens when we are surrounded by that kind of support. But it's- when it's essential, it's not something you can repair on your own. It's an interpersonal wound, and it needs to be this relational kind of healing. But it can happen in many settings if we have those people around us.

Robyn: Yes, and so, so many other people who I know, read my blog and listen to my podcasts are caring for kids who have had their own attachment losses occur. And really shifting the focus to how do I receive the care that I need? 

Bonnie: Yes

Robyn: So then I can, just so much more easily, provide the care for my child that my child needs. Which is, for some people, just a totally brand new way of looking at things. You know, to shift away from what do I need to do to help this child? There's a way that that almost becomes natural is not exactly the right word. But it's- it can flow in a way that's so hard to even conceptualize before you have had that happen for yourself first. 

Bonnie: That's right. I think that's what you're saying is absolutely vital, Robyn, because if we- if we have not had that felt sense experience ourselves, then when we're trying to provide it for another, we're usually following some kind of a checklist. It isn't actually about connection, because we don't even know what that is inside. So these layers of support, if I could redo society, from the bottom up, it would be built around layers of support for everyone. So that the person who supports me is getting their own support, and then that person is getting their own support. So there's this movement to- to be present to the daily traumas that happen to us, the daily ways were missed, the ways the world is the way you know. There's so much just in the environment, that's hurtful. And now we come into our families, and we try to bring this warmth and connection. And if we don't feel it inside, either, we'll lose the thread entirely, or we'll be trying to provide something from a distant place that really isn't part of how we're- how we're experiencing our own selves in the world. And so what you're saying to me is probably, you know, when people ask, “what do we need to change”? Whether we're looking at things like child protective services, kinds of things, or elder care, or whatever it is. It's so important to begin to build in, it just as a normal part of everything, these layers of support. And it isn't there.

Robyn: Yeah. It absolutely is not there and has been such a huge, you know.. Learning this for me and embodying it myself has been such a huge driving force and like, what do I want my work to look like? How can I provide the most support possible. And is- is really what has been the driving force for why I have worked so hard, like my own personal work. Because- and I think probably even before I met you, or maybe even knew of you, you know, had known and taught maybe, that the best thing I could do for my clients was to, you know, be the- have done the my own work myself. You know, in my own therapy, have my own what I would now call my own, like, community of support. Lending my- my you know- lending itself to my own inner community. I wouldn't have said that way back then. But I look back. And that was very motivating to me. If I wanted nothing, I wanted to be a really great therapist. And figuring out that like part of being a really great therapist meant doing this other really intensive work, which nobody really warned me about. I didn't know that was what was in store for me. 

Bonnie: Well you can’t really tell anybody how it unfolds, and it's always surprising. 

Robyn: It sure is, and was, and will continue to be. But I have always been curious. I don't think I've asked you this maybe ever. But do you remember, so the first time you and I met was at a three day training in Austin. And you came and did the- the streams of attachment training. In Austin. And I, you know, signed up right away. Like me and my friends who signed up right away. And then I started to get cold feet and thought about not coming. And I emailed you. Do you remember this? 

Bonnie: I do.

Robyn: I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t [undistinguishable] it was so impactful and life changing to me it was just like a blip in your life. But I was noticing myself being like, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I'm not sure that I want to do this in the community- in my- with my peers, right? We were in Austin and so other awesome therapists. And as I began to get some more clarity around what I'd signed up for, like what I was getting into, it started to feel really overwhelming to me, and very, very vulnerable. And I emailed you, I have the email. I emailed you and I- and at that point, I know, you're all- you're just this person who wrote books. Right? And, and I said, I’ve got some questions about the upcoming, you know, retreat in Austin, which would you be able to connect? And you said, Absolutely, we connected immediately, you know, within days, probably. And I told you what I was afraid of, like I told you, I was afraid that, you know, as we kind of began to kind of go into this more like embodied space of going to be connected to our own attachments, experiences in our bodies, that I was going to freeze. And that I wouldn't be able to do it like I really pictured myself just like staring and not being able to do it at all. And then feeling embarrassed in front of my colleagues and just like, you know, snowballed from there. And you said to me, and I will never forget this, right? You said, if that happens, those parts of you will be welcome too. 

Bonnie: That's right.

Robyn: And it like, it changed my whole life. I really feel like that changed my whole life, like I believed you.

Bonnie: I meant it!

Robyn: I know you did. And again, I didn't know you at all, I don't even know that I'd read your book, like I had a colleague who adored you. And so I just trusted her and said, I'll go. And there was something about you saying those parts of you will be welcome there too. And the fact that I believed it, allowed me to say, “okay, I'll show up. I'll go and we'll just see what happens”. And I think that's why I've kept coming back to you. Because I know you believe so- so absolutely. Those parts- those parts are welcome to and will believe that that was exactly what needed to happen in that moment. 

Bonnie: That's right. Yeah, that's right, every, every part of every person has its own unique value and wisdom. And when that part comes, if we can- in with a- with a- a warm curiosity, and an open heart, a really, truly open heart, welcome that part. That wisdom will somehow get shared. And when- when- if you would have frozen, or dissociated, or started crying, or whatever. To me, that would be like, “oh, my goodness, it's safe enough here for this part to come and show herself and be welcomed here. And to just have her share, however, she wants to share whether it's by being completely still or whatever”, but to know that that's a real living part of you. So of course, that would be welcome here. So there are parts that are patha- there's not pathology with parts, there's not parts that are bad. It's not bad to dissociate. If somebody comes into my office and dissociates, the only reason they're doing it is because this is a real living state inside of them, born out of some kinds of terrifying experiences that they had. And needs to be seen and witnessed for how valuable it was to dissociate when things were intolerable. So, but we can get scared. I mean, I think what happens for people is when someone dissociates or goes into some fairly extreme state, whatever that is, we get frightened if we don't understand it. And for me, the neurobiology, interpersonal neurobiology, but relational neuroscience in general, has taught me over years, and years, and years of trying to embody it, that everything is a value and is meaningful. And I believe it with my whole heart. And so I can honestly say it's much more important for me to trust you if you're my client, than it is for you to trust me. That will grow over time. But if I can trust the innate wisdom of your system, and know that the healing pathway lies within you, and that I am there to make space for that to emerge and then hold whatever emerges, which is why we need to do our own work. 

Robyn: Right.

Bonnie: Otherwise, it’s hard to hold so much. Then I feel like- like I can- I can- I can offer a safe landing space for whatever it is that comes into the room. 

Robyn: Yes. Yes, and I would feel like that's like a summary of my work with- with you and with my own therapist, and with all other people. Like how you said, we all need to have our own layers of support. Like, I knew that I didn't know who supported my therapist, but I know that she works so hard to get that. And I trusted her with that. And I don't know all of who supports you. But I know that you prioritize it, and that there's like a way that I can even lean into that, like being so gratitude- having so much gratitude for my therapist’s therapists. 

Bonnie: That's right. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Bonnie: That's right. Yeah. And those people become part of us. I mean, it's really beautiful is when I'm with you, you're not just with me, you're with the, probably half a dozen people that I've internalized so deeply, primarily because they care for me. And I know, I'm not only loved, but I'm fully accepted as I am, and that I could go to any of those people and say, here's what I'm struggling with. And they would simply listen, and hold me, and allow my own wisdom about this and process to unfold. And because that's in there, you know, we really are a team. When we come to people, like I'm part of your inner team, and actually you're part of my inner team, too. I mean, we're really warm and close to each other. And I trust you and, and feel your wisdom inside of me as well. So when we don't feel alone, when we really feel accompanied that way by these layers of support. So it isn't only who's out there, we're talking to day by day, but who we brought inside. So that we never have that sense of aloneness, but always have that sense of having so much more to offer because of these others. 

Robyn: Yes. And for me, it really is about us having- the most profound part is internalizing people who really believe like, those parts are welcome here too. 

Bonnie: That’s right.

Robyn: There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you. And knowing that the person I was with the present as allowing myself to be the most vulnerable with- to, you know, allow all my parts to show up really believed that. And the other part that I really believed, both about you and my therapist is, if there ever were moments of just like implicit awakenings, and you did find yourself really stirred up by a part of me, that that wasn't about me. That that was about you. And you would do your own what you needed to do to take care of that part of you. 

Bonnie: And if there was a rupture, there would be a repair. Like, if I was to [undistinguishable] with you, let's say, or even dissociate a little bit. I could be- I could recognize myself as just a human being, who has all kinds of things going on inside. And I think from that place of humility, rather than a place that our profession often pushes us where we have to be the expert, we have to know what, why. But if instead, we can just be a human being with certain expertise and lots to offer, but also a human being side by side with the people who come to us. It's really helpful for everybody in the room, I mean, it takes the pressure off of us. And it also lets people have the experience of ruptures happening and finding out that repair can happen. Every time a rupture is repaired, the relationship gets stronger. We have to be able to know that, and try and access 33% of the time we get it right on the first try. And all the rest is rupture and repair as human beings. What a lovely, beautiful feeling if we can really hold that, you know, and what a gift to others. 

Robyn: Oh, I think so too. The way that that just relieves us of this pressure to be perfect, as well as like the shame afterwards is like, “oh, we're just messing up all the time, because we're human”. And if we can notice it- notice the rupture that happened between myself and this other person and then be gutsy enough to repair it. How- that's in a way, I think it's even more profound than the initial like everything- we're chugging along just fine and attunement with each other in the first place. 

Bonnie: That's right. And often the deeper we get into the work, and the more trust there is, then the more of the really painful and frightening things come into the room. So there's more apt to be ruptures that happened just in terms of I can't hold on to myself, this particular day. You know, I’m tired too and then a big thing happens, and I can't quite do it and I fall into it with you, which I'm more apt to do then go to left hemisphere and dissociate from it. I'm more I know me, I'm more apt to get- and I can just say this is really a lot for both of us. I wonder if we can come back together now and then that repair happens and we just sit in connection a bit. And then we try it again, maybe, you know. That- that way of being is also I think helping everybody helping, especially so many of the people that have come to see me over the years are driven by trying to be perfect.

Robyn: Yeah.

Bonnie: Just driven by it. This society puts that kind of pressure on it. And when they experience when they can experience with me, my big lack of perfection, it begins to loosen that that in itself is a disconfirming experience. About having to be perfect. So healing happens in it, the healing potential is there in almost every single thing that happens in the room, including when we get lost with our people.

Robyn: Well, the need to be perfect is certainly what was so present for me when I first you know, came into contact with you. And I- I certainly still like to, you know, get things right. But also really don't have even close to the amount of like stress or at times, terror, that used to come up when I wasn't getting something right. Whether that be a relational something and like- a like a knowing knowledge, something, you know, I like to really know things. And now it's just like, oh, well, let's, I'm not sure. Let's be curious. Let's see what happens next, or whoops, that was wrong. Oops, what's up? 

Bonnie: Right

Robyn: To get back on track. 

Bonnie: Yeah, because to be really present with people means that we're actually in this moment with them. And we literally don't know what's going to happen next. We can't prepare for it. We can't do anything except be there. And so we can't know how things will touch us if we're actually present. So when we get scared of that we’ll tend to shift more into the left hemisphere and exert some control. So there isn't so much that's unknown, that happens because now I'm in- I'm controlling this, and I'm telling you, my person, what, what they need to do, like, try this or that instead of being with the flow of it. So there's an inherent kind of anxiety and openness to having there be ruptures, when we're actually present to this particular moment with this particular individual. 

Robyn: Yes

Bonnie: That's where healing happens when we're connected in that space. That's where healing can happen. 

Robyn: That’s so simple, in a way yet so profoundly difficult. I mean, I know I wasn't the only therapist to, you know, meet you. And really, I would say, at first actually be quite confused at the lack of technique to rove the way that you practice, right. Like, I had a toolbox stuffed full of tools. And I know, my colleagues do that, too. And they love that and the parents that I work with too, right, like want- and it makes perfect sense. And tools are important, you know, but that- what I have received from you couldn't be further from a technique or a tool. And really learning, when I'm focused on what's supposed to happen next, in this treatment protocol or in this way I've been trained. That I'm actually doing the exact opposite of what I really want to be doing to set up an experience that can truly be resonant, and impactful. So maybe say a little bit more about that, because I bet you can say that a little bit more eloquently and I did 

Bonnie: Well, I think part of this, the struggle is that so much of our training, and so much of our culture is around controlling behaviors, and keeling symptoms, and having ways to do certain protocols, say for anxiety, or depression, or whatever. Well, the first thing that happens with that is the individual is gone, because now we're looking at a protocol for anxiety. We're not saying gosh, I wonder, what is your anxiety like? No two people's anxiety is the same. And I don't have anybody ever who's come in and is only anxious, they have other things going on. So today, I got somebody who's anxious, and the next time it's dropped off into depression, and then they dissociate a little bit, and then we think it'd be a good idea to have a drink. So there's all these different ways that we are- as individuals in great variety. So when we get caught up in protocols, we lose that- that focus on the individual person as they are in this moment. So to me that- that's where it has to begin is, again, with this particular, unique individual, and our respect for who they are, and their capacities, and our wish to make it safe for them on whatever day and safety comes from non judgmental presence without agenda. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Bonnie: That is a tall order for the [unintelligible] practice the rest of our lives. And we never get it all the way, right. But we do begin to notice when we're making a judgment about somebody or an assessment. I- at least that's what would happen for me, my brain would do that. And I, instead of being mad at myself about it, I go like, there you go, again, brain. We're making a judgment about this person. What would it be like to take a breath and let go of it, sit back in my chair and be present to this person with more curiosity, so that this person feels safe enough to begin to really come forward into more and more of their full self. But again, recognizing I'm human, I'm going to have judgments. I'm going to sometimes have an agenda, although because I have not had all those trainings, but I have fewer agendas than most people. 

Robyn: Yes.

Bonnie: So. So I stick to sandtray and non-dominant hand drawing, and then doing this kind of, again, just deep inner reflective work. Where as the person comes forward, I can meet them and reflect them where they are in the moment. And I have found that to be the most healing. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Bonnie: Because when it's protocol driven, again, if you're really following protocol, you're not listening to what's happening.

Robyn: Right.

Bonnie: None of us would be listening to what's happening for the other person.

Robyn: Right.

Bonnie: So I'm always checking in, I'll say, I've noticed you're looking at the sand tray shelves, I'm wondering if you're feeling like you want to go that direction. Let's check inside and see. And they'll go, I don't know. And I'll say it makes sense you don't know you weren't allowed to even be with yourself when you were little. So let's just try some things. Let's go toward- maybe we could go toward it and see. And then if at any point, it feels like “nope, wrong direction”. We'll stop. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Bonnie: So even just the respect of trusting a person's inner wisdom, which I really, really do trust, that wisdom. That grants such dignity and respect to a person, that something begins to change inside, even when they aren't able to really find themselves yet because all that neurocircuitry has to get built up over time. And to be able to say that, of course, it's hard for you to find yourself, no one's helped you ever do that. So it just, you know, play around with it and see what happens. So moving in those directions, to me feel- most valuable. And again, dignity, respect, individuality, respect for that feels central to me to how I want you to walk in the world, not just in the counseling room, but in therapy [unintelligible] world to be in the world as well. Because that's what I want for myself.

Robyn: Yeah, so a couple things are coming for me and one is just say, like, that is what I learned being with you and learned, actually, profoundly quickly again. I was surprised to how quickly it shifted for me, which is, you know, I- I absolutely can lead in the world of this with a performative way of, of I've got to do this correctly. What are other people expecting me to do and how do I do it in a way that matches their expectation? So something like sandtray, nondominant hand drawing, then is extremely, let’s just say terrifying to me. And knowing- so I had this way of like, knowing the reason that we're used- doing something like sandtray, nondominant hand drawing is to just how whatever happens to happens. And then to also know that that absolutely was not what I wanted to happen to allow, you know, something to just happen. And then I would judge that part of myself, like, “oh, my gosh, Robyn, like just chill out, like, just drop this performative piece. Just be pret-”, you know? And so to learn that that part exactly like you said, like that part was welcome too. Let's just be curious about that part. Like that's a part that's- that's- that deserves to be recognized, honored, explored in with. That changed so much for me and truly, very quickly, like in a way that I was really quite blown away by how fast that shifted. But the other thing that's coming up for me is that I know so many of people who are listening to podcasts are parents who have really dysregulated kids or therapists of really dysregulated kids like me. And so I can just hear them going, “okay, but what does that look like with these kids? What does that look like with these kids in my office who are throwing things and out of control?”. And, and so I want to just because I used to wonder that too. And so I want to just maybe speak to that just a brief bit. I want to assure everyone listening, that even though it didn't feel like something practical, I could bring into the therapy room with these profoundly dysregulated children. It's the most practical thing that I did was to learn how to create space in my own nervous system to welcome all of it.

Bonnie: But I know that that's it, that's the wisdom right there. Is that because of the way our nervous systems operate, if I can truly stay in that welcoming social engagement part of my system, and I think that happens if I understand what's going on, and I don't see this bad behavior. But I see this as an expression of what's happening in this child and in this moment, and it's meaningful. To tell me something through this behavior, about the level of their upset, and how nobody has approached them very likely not often enough, certainly, with this wide window, of understanding and of calmness. Now, that doesn't mean there may not have to be a stop- a halt to the behavior.

Robyn: Right

Bonnie: But it does mean I'm not going to make them bad in my mind, because what communicate- what we're feeling inside about somebody is the loudest voice in the room, no matter what we're saying, on the outside. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Bonnie: So- so if I'm really feeling like you're being awful, and I want it to stop, but I'm acting a certain way, that in congruence is just poison for the child. Because again, and figure out what's happening, and it's probably part of what's been happening all along, as there hasn't been any congruence. So I really need to work to get myself to the place where I truly feel, in the depths of myself, that this behavior is meaningful, and is communication by this child, of a deep state of upset. So while even I'm, you know, saying we need to stop doing this, I'm staying in that loving, warm, open space. That's an invitation to their nervous system to follow because their nervous system yearns for that- yearns for that place of peace and connection. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Bonnie: So it's about the inner world again, just what you were saying earlier, Robyn. The inner world, our inner world is communicating, very profoundly nervous system to nervous system. So if my nervous system is saying, you're okay, and you're welcome here as you are, and yet, we do still have to stop this right now. That's saying, something very profound and beginning to reshape this little one's nervous system, who wants to come toward that and have that joining. That's what we want connections of biological imperative. Safety is the treatment. This is Steve Porges, those two statements just go round and round in my mind and have come to like, live inside me as being the absolute truth. So we can safely stop a child from destructive behavior while communicating. You're all right. And I hear the amount of upset that you're showing me right now. 

Robyn: Yeah!

Bonnie: And I'm with you. 

Robyn: And actually literally saying those things. 

Bonnie: Yes, yes. 

Robyn: And I mean, I can remember so clearly, like all telling a one particular sweet one, repeatedly that all of that gets to come here and it gets to come back next week too. I can't wait to see you next week, and bring all of you with you again, because there was so much shame that was happening. And- and that particular circumstance, I'm even thinking of. Part of why I was able to find the words to say that to that individual was because I talked to you weekly about this chaos, because the level of chaos that was happening inside my therapy room was tremendous. Like more than usual. 

Bonnie: Yes

Robyn: There's usually a lot of chaos in my personal therapy room. And this particular one was so in- so much. And not only was there so much chaos happening in my room that I needed support to be able to stay really grounded in everything that you just said, like the truth that this- all this behavior makes sense that connection is a biological imperative. Like, I had to stay super grounded to that. I also had to stay really in touch with what was getting touched inside of me. 

Bonnie: That's right. 

Robyn: Yeah. And so the both- the debate being with both places, and I know sometimes for me, and I think the therapists I work with and the parents I work with too can almost get this new layer where they shame themselves after they started to explore all the neurobiology stuff, and they're starting to be like, “oh okay, this does really make sense. I get it”. And “I still can't stop myself from being triggered. I still can't”, 

Bonnie: Yes

Robyn: ”show up with my kid or my client in the way that I know that I should”. And so then extending that same grace to those parts of ourselves. Like that part, makes perfect sense too. That part is welcome here, too. 

Bonnie: And that opens the door to the warm curiosity of like what's seen in me? So really, our people, the people that come to see us are active in our own healing process.

Robyn: Yes they are. 

Bonnie: When that's off as long as we have the backup and the support to get the help them to be curious like what part of me is so touched by that? 

Robyn: Yes. And hearing from you, like almost needing permission to say, like you saying to me and bring me with you. Which was a practice I started doing, right? Like before, especially before, experiences that I knew were going to be overwhelming to me or really touch a lot of my own stuff. Just pausing and like, you know, I have a very clear image of my inner community and who they are. And you're- you're there at the center of that, and really bringing- bringing that image to mind. And then I want to say that is- that also was. I’m stumbling over my words, because it's like, how do you even put this into words? But I've started hearing two things from parents, people I've never even met, people, which I'm sure happens to you too, because of your books and what you put out to the world. And one, people say, like, I hear your voice in my head, when things are starting to get hard in my life. Or people are telling me they listen to my podcasts in the mornings.

Bonnie: That’s lovely!

Robyn: So that they can easily set themselves in the space. And we'll say things like, it gives me just a few more minutes of regulation. And then to know enough about the neurobiology to go like, even in this format, starting to like embed into people's inner communities in that kind of a way. That's allowing them then to maybe a- welcome the intensity in their homes, or their therapy rooms for just even one or two more seconds. And then maybe the next time one or two more seconds. Or…

Bonnie: Social baseline theory tells us all about this, you know, I love social baseline theory. Because after we have internalized somebody, or if we have somebody on the outside that feels trustworthy to us. It automatically calms the amygdala and both people. So just seeing you this morning, you know, we come on here, and my heart kind of opens and I feel really calm and all of that. And part of that is because you and I have this trustworthy connection between us. And so when we internalize that then, and like you're saying, people will say they hear your voice, or they can picture you or whatever it is. They're really also calling on this social baseline theory, reality…

Robyn: Right!

Bonnie: …that radically slows everything down inside and provides a sense of reassurance. And the greater the trust, the more that's true. So when we call really trustworthy beloveds. Which, as therapists, we become that for our people. And hopefully, we have all of those inside as well. There's a lot of calming that happens just by making contact in that way. So it's really, really beautiful. Sometimes it comes as a visceral sensation. I've had a number of people say that what they feel when they get that contact is like a warmth in the chest. There may not be any words. There may not be thoughts about it at all. But there's a sense of warm accompaniment that happens right in the heart brain, right? And throughout the chest of that feeling of like, I'm not alone. What makes trauma happen isn't the event. What makes trauma happen is our aloneness with the event. And so when- when we feel right now, in this moment, that could be traumatic because it's so intense, but we feel accompanied there's much less chance of actually becoming a long term embedded trauma. Because we feel the accompaniment and it's like, “okay, we're here together”. 

Robyn: Yes. And I know how much you've become a part of me, because one of the best things that happens to me is when I introduce you to somebody else. So maybe someone who didn’t know you and they read your book, or they hear you on a podcast, or you're recently you did that big series, right? Like it was like a big five part series or something. 

Bonnie: Yeah for a- for a- through group in Ireland. Yes. 

Robyn: Yes! And so oh, and you recently spoke for Austin and connections, of course, just so many people I know are getting introduced to you. And then I start getting messages that like, I hear Bonnie in you, or I'm listening to Bonnie speak and I hear you in her in a way. And I was just like, I mean if- I just can't hardly- 

Bonnie: Because it's the truth! We're intermingled or like braided streams, you know, where we come together, and then we go apart, and then we come back together. And there's all this sharing, 

Robyn: Yes.

Bonnie: And you can't begin to tell one stream from another after a while. And that's- that's community. I mean, to me, that true community, and it has an effect in the world of saying, this is the way we want to live with each other. And it's the most natural way to live with each other. Again, connections,the biological imperative is our mental lives. This intermingled way. And yet our culture pulls us so hard away from that into self- self regulation, self reliance, and individuality all those left hemisphere places. But it's just not the way our systems want to live.

Robyn: No.

Bonnie: In this entanglement, this beautiful entanglement.

Robyn: Yes, and this beautiful entanglement and, what I hear people say, to me what I hear, and I guess what might be what maybe gives me so much hope. I'm not sure what the exactly the feeling is, is like, maybe I'm doing for people, which you've done for me. And then I mean, just even in this moment, I just want to like sob about that. I mean, I was so- part of me was like, I can't believe that's true. And if that is true, just such an ending gratitude in the universe first, and just a way that that- that works like wow! And then of course, just grab more gratitude that I get every weekend to put into words for our- like our relationship. And just what's happened since that day, I called you and said, I don't think I want to do this anymore. And you said-

Bonnie: Oh I’m glad you did! 

Robyn: I know! I can't imagine, my friends would have never really let me probably bail on that experience. They would never allowed- 

Bonnie: They would’ve brought you in as a captive? 

Robyn: Exactly! But if I hadn't reached out to you ahead of time, I wouldn't have heard you say and those parts of you are welcome too. And I needed that! I needed that before I showed up, I think. In a way to just create the space that- that I needed. 

Bonnie: And so that is coming directly from the person in my mid 60s, who is my most, probably my most clear supporter of that, and the one who really taught me that by receiving me in every possible condition.

Robyn: Yeah.

Bonnie: So that's also his voice, when it- through me, you know. Again, there's these, you know, we think of the intergenerational trauma, you know, that how those intergenerational- there's also intergenerational healing legacy. 

Robyn: Yes, yes.

Bonnie: And we get to participate in with each other. And to each other, you know, over and over again. And so it really is beautiful and important. And, again, how I want to live in the world. And what I want to promote is more of those layers of support that get internalized, and then- and then create this, this web of community that believes this way. And I can't help but think that if we get- if enough of us participate in this way. Not talk about. Not think about it. But actually participate in this way, that it can be strong enough to make some significant changes, whether it's with systemic racism, or the way we hold our planet,

Robyn: Yes.

Bonnie: or whatever it may be. And of course, how we're with our closest people in our families and with our- with the people who come to us for healing, but also bigger change in the world. Because it's rooted in this sense of this- in this entangled, loving- entangled community. We don't feel that with the Earth, you're not going to do the things we need to do. Anyway. I-

Robyn: I know.

Bonnie: That- gets big. Gets very big, but- but that little things like this. And blossom that way to me is so beautiful. 

Robyn: This work is what is like rippling out this- this work, you're talking about this way of being with people in a new way. Is- has the potential to then make impacts on these other pieces. And I take a lot of just, I don’t know, solace in that. And in gratitude. What we’re doing matters. And it matters even when we don't know that it does. 

Bonnie: Yes. 

Robyn: Because of change we can see, you know.

Bonnie: Absolutely, absolutely. And you're right, you know, whether it's a book or it's a blog, or it's a podcast, or whatever. There's so many people we'll never meet, that are touched and then touch somebody else. And that, again, to me is really beautiful. Because I feel like the work that you and I do, Robyn, is really what all of our human hearts yearn for. It- It's cooperating with the inherent health and every person in some way and supporting that. In emerging. And that matters. 

Robyn: Yeah, it does matter. 

Bonnie: Yes. 

Robyn: Oh, gosh, thank you so much for everything. For this hour I know, it's like let’s hug each other over all that. 

Bonnie: I know! 

Robyn: But you know, thank you for this- this time this morning. But just thank you for everything. I mean, I couldn't tell you enough that you've just completely changed the trajectory of my life, and my family's life and, and everybody who's listening is impacted by you. Because you have impacted me so substantially.

Bonnie: Well thank you so much and you know, it feels we- all of us want to feel loved. But it feels really good to have what's offered, received. So that's a gift to me because as a child, nothing I had to offer was received really by my family, except maybe my big brain but not nothing else was wanted. Not love, not- not time, not anything. And so as you receive, have you received me and then come back to me. That's very healing and filling for me. So thank you. 

Robyn: Yes, you're welcome. Wow, y'all, it's hard to even know what to say now. I mean, this time I have with Bonnie and this interview will be treasured forever. If you want to learn more about the amazing work Bonnie does in the world, head over to her website, www.NurturingTheHeart.com and I'll put that in the show notes. So you'll be able to click right to it, you won’t have to remember that. Bonnie is the author of three books: Being a Brain-wise Therapist, The Brain-savvy Therapist’s Workbook, and her newest book, Heart of Trauma. Don't forget to head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub before July 6th. It's my hope that The Club offers to parents or professionals even just a fraction of what I've received from Bonnie. Through relationship of connection and co-regulation, where you feel seen and now that all parts of you are welcome for exactly who they are. As always, thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to connect with me today and caring for kids impacted by trauma. I am so grateful for you. Keep coming back and keep doing amazing work out there in the world. And then of course, please take a moment to share this podcast with your colleagues, friends, grandparents, teachers, everyone! The sooner the whole world understands the neurobiology of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human. The sooner kids will live in a world that sees them for who they really are. Completely amazing, and sometimes struggling. Thanks for tuning in today. See you next time!