Cookin’ is Connecting with Chef Kibby {EP 45}

Robyn: I'm Robyn Gobbel and welcome to the Parenting After Trauma podcast where I take the science of being relationally, socially, and behaviorally human and translate that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. I'm a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively, and even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention to give free, accessible support to you as fast as possible. So this podcast isn't fancy and I do very little editing. Sometimes you'll even get lucky enough to hear a cockadoodledoo in the background. If you love this episode, please add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and share with your friends and colleagues. You are definitely going to want to head over to my website and get my new, free ebook that I've created all about the brilliance of attachment. I took everything from the six part series that I ran in June, and had it professionally laid out into a free ebook. Watching the series go from words into feels like a work of art was surprisingly lovely. I hope you love it. You can get it at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. And while you're on my website, you're definitely not going to want to check out The Club, a virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course, a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. This week, The Club had our monthly meeting that we just call connect & co-regulate, and y'all sometimes I just can't even. It is so, so, so overwhelming to be a part of this amazing community. The way they bravely show up for each other and themselves has exceeded what I ever thought was possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, to be understood, we would love to have you. The Club opens for new members approximately every three months and we'll be opening our doors again in the fall. If you head to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you'll be able to add yourself to the waiting list.

Robyn: Today's episode with Chef Kibby is so fun. I am a big, big fan of creating moments of healing for our kids like Dr. Perry talks about. Moments as opposed to once a week therapeutic hour. Not that we don't want to be offering the once a week therapeutic hour. But we want to be offering so much more that our kids need so much more, they need moments of healing. He talks about creating therapeutic experiences far beyond the traditional therapy room. And that's exactly what Chef Kibby is doing. So instead of giving you any more introduction, I'm just going to hit play on the interview so you can hear for yourself. I hope you love it. 

Robyn: Well, welcome Kibby to the podcast. I'm really excited to have you on with me today, to have this opportunity to get to know a little bit more about all the awesome work that you're doing and to share that with my listeners. So hello, hello!

Chef Kibby: Thank you so much for having me as a longtime listener, first time caller, I guess. [laughs] I'm really excited to be on the show. Thanks for inviting me.

Robyn: Yeah, well, I just had to! I mean, as I you know, we've had this, you know, relationship over Instagram and in DMs. And as I'm looking at, like what the work is you do like, oh, this is cool. This is unique. This is interesting. I want to share this with my listeners. So let's just dive right into that and tell us who you are and what you do.

Chef Kibby: Absolutely. Well, for those of you who have not met me yet, or slid into my DMs on Instagram at this point, my name is Chef Kibby. I am a certified chef, a culinary professional of 25 years, I'm a culinary instructor, I teach for the community college here in Columbus, an amazing program from which I graduated about 10 years ago. Apart from that, I'm also a biological foster and adoptive dad. And the real kind of impetus behind what I'm doing right now, as a content creator, a course creator, and a coach is taking what I've learned and kind of combining my culinary background with my background as a trauma informed parent, and put them together in, well, kind of the journey that I've been through and learning how much the kitchen can be a place of creating connection for our children, and specifically for children from a trauma background, which is why I think you and I have a lot in common. I've actually learned quite a bit from you and listening to your podcasts. And so I think it's just- it's amazing that I get to be on this side of the microphone now. And to be able to speak and to other people who are like me, who wants to understand more about what's going on in the minds of our children, and also our own minds as well, in order to be more attuned and present and to use the skills and tools that we have available to us to create deeper attachment and felt safety for them. And I've just been so blown away in the process that I've gone through over the last couple of years, to learn what a blessing it is to be comfortable in the kitchen and to be used- be able to use that as a way to communicate these things to my children in a way that they're actually receptive and responsive to and begin to see some progress in our relationships.

Robyn: Well, I’m sure you know that probably one of the number one- let's just- let's say at the very least top five challenges that parents will talk with me about is food. Feeding, what they won't eat, or they eat too much, or the lying or the stealing that goes on around food. Or just that this experience that is so ingrained, I think in us as parents, one, just as the nurturing experience of parenting, and how that of course goes hand in hand with feeding. Then there's so much just like social and cultural pressure around the meaning we make of ourselves as parents, if we're quote unquote, feeding our kids well, or because you're eating well, or whatever stories we make up around food. And man does all of that come to a head when parenting kids with a trauma history, even if their trauma history doesn't have overt food related trauma in it. And so when I was seeing what you were doing, and seeing this really, I would say creative way, you're going at this simply because I saw something I've seen really anywhere else with this focus that you have on helping parents and kids bring- just like you said connection and felt safety into this food experience. So I just want to hear all about it. I mean, I want to hear was it- was there like ah-ha moment you had with your own kids? Or was it like really gradual and all of a sudden? I just want to hear like how you came to the like your Chef Kibby you know, kind of the brand that I'm looking at online where you seem really focused right on working with foster and adoptive families. 

Chef Kibby: Yes, and honestly, all those things you brought up we could probably have an entire podcast episode on each one of those particular issues.

Robyn: For sure!

Chef Kibby: Maybe that'll give us some content for later on down the road for the next time we chat. But in the meantime, yeah, understanding kind of the story of how- how I got to this point. Let's go back to the good old days before COVID. You know, BC. 

Robyn: Right? 

Chef Kibby: So about a year and a half ago, we're talking March of 2020 as I'm sitting here, right now. I had a business, a family catering business, I was already teaching at the community college, but also had the family catering business where I was helping other people to be present for the people that matter to them most. You know, the mother of the bride, the host of the events, you know, whatever the case may be. That was kind of my full time job, I was doing that primarily which there were some events where I had to pull in maybe my wife, or my mother in law, or someone else from the family to help make those events happen. So it was a family business. We also had a small event center where we were hosting small events and also doing hands-on kitchen sessions. So cooking classes, where we had up to 12 people, whether they were family members, or students, or maybe a work group, you know, an employer and some of their- their employees or clients cooking and eating together. And really, that's where I first began to see kind of that- that connecting power, that relational power. That I always knew, being a professional in the hospitality management industry. Hospitality is all about opening your doors to other people, and being welcoming, and friendly, and courteous. And so I always knew that there was something about food that brought people together. Then we started doing the- the hands-on kitchen sessions. I started having like family groups. There was one group in particular, it was a mom and dad with five grown adult children and their spouses. So the 12 of them around Christmas time would come together and do one of my kitchen sessions. And that again, kind of ratcheted up that- that thought process in my mind that, wow, there's really- there's something here, there's something to this that other people aren't quite realizing yet. But it wasn't until the pandemic happened. And, you know, catering is all about people in large groups eating together. So that went uh buh-bye. 

Robyn: Right?

Chef Kibby: Real fast. And kitchen sessions, people without masks, handling food, and cooking, and eating together. That? So long. And so pretty much overnight, my entire family business and everything that I felt from a- from a real personal kind of regulation standpoint, justified my existence as- as a chef, just calling myself a chef was erased overnight. And that was a huge hit to my self esteem. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Chef Kibby: I'm still kind of dealing with it to this point, which is great about being on these podcasts, a little bit of free therapy, I'm not gonna lie. [laughs]

Robyn: I do just want to pause and say, like, wow, and thank you for sharing that. And I mean, I have- I relate to that in a way because although my business was not, of course, obviously nothing like yours. It was deeply impacted by the pandemic and everything that goes along with this major global crisis, as well as this significant personal and then family crisis. 

Chef Kibby: Absolutely. 

Robyn: Gosh, I really feel- feel that and thank you for sharing.

Chef Kibby: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, it's- it's an important part of my story. And it's an important part of the things that I feel God has brought me through to bring me to this place of healing not only for my family, but also for myself. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: And which is what I'm so happy to be sharing in my- in my programs in cooking is connecting and kind of teaching this- this methodology, this framework around the kitchen. And so when all of this got pulled out from under me, I retreated back to my home and back to my kitchen, which is kind of that place of comfort and felt safety for me. It's something that I feel like I had control over. I feel very comfortable in, and was able to take the opportunity to be more present with my family. You know, catering I can help other people be present for the people in their lives. But at the same time, I wasn't as present for my own. And so that excuse was no longer there. I could be home, I could be cooking, and cooking more with my children. And alongside of that, alongside of the cooking more at home and being in the kitchen more with my children, I was also going through this process of wanting to know how to be more present, kind of, emotionally for my family. I've been a foster and adoptive parents for almost 10 years now. And that comes with a lot of struggles. If any of you and your audience have been or are foster adoptive parents, they know that there's a lot of struggle that comes along with it for managing behavior to building co-regulation. Terminology that I can use now but back then I had no clue about. I was not- I did not receive that sort of training in the process of becoming a foster adoptive parent. And so I began to do some research, some reading, some listening to find out what was really going on. You know, how can I, how can we get better at this? And that's when I came to discover, you know, interpersonal neurobiology. The first place where I started to learn about that was through the Karen Purvis Institute of Child Development through TBRI. TBRI, Trust Based Relational Intervention has been a night and day game changer for my family, learning about it, having a TBRI practitioner as our family counselor has been amazing. And through that I began to learn about, you know, Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson and others in the interpersonal neurobiology space, and begin to read and listen and you know, do trainings and things like that. And it is in that process, those two things kind of happening in parallel, the cooking with my children and learning about interpersonal neurobiology, they all just kind of came together. And I realized, what an amazing opportunity I have to use the kitchen as a place, like you said, to address one of the most basic needs of all children, let alone those from a trauma background, who already have that in ingrained felt, kind of, constant and chronic anxiety around food and around having their basic needs met. And to use the kitchen as a way of integrating what I'm learning about- about what's going on in their minds and use some real research and science backed practices, and integrate it into our normal family life through the shared act of cooking and eating together. And so I've kind of packaged all of that- that knowledge and information and that mindset around cooking into what I'm calling cooking is connecting. Which, at this point, I'm actually in the process, as we're recording this, of doing a bit of a brand shift. I'm pretty sure that cooking- Cooking with Kibby, which has been kind of my brand up until this point, mostly based around teaching people about cooking. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Chef Kibby: I feel like I need to take a step back from that and really get to the heart. You know, it's kind of like, you know, your c-ray goggles, you know, it's- it's, you know, we can address the food thing, but really, we needed to get- take a few steps back like I had to do, and see what cooking can be more than just putting food on the table more than just meeting those basic needs for our children. But how can we use it to- to relationally intervene, and to begin to see some actual changes take place. And as you can hear, by the tambour of my voice, I'm so stoked about this. And I'm so glad that I have your platform and others to be able to share this with other people so that they can begin to see the changes that I've started to see in my family's life.

Robyn: Yeah, well, you're absolutely right, that it's just your enthusiasm is so clear, and so contagious. It's easy to feel like, oh, yeah, like, let's- let's do this! 

Chef Kibby: Let’s get cooking, right?

Robyn: Exactly! Let’s get cooking. Now, I will also confess to you, I don't know that why you would know this about me, but I'm a terrible cook. Terrible. My husband is an amazing cook, like, sometimes considers cooking as a career and then we kind of come back to like, it's just hard. It’s hard, long hours, all that kind of good stuff. So-.

Chef Kibby: Yeah, I will say it's not nearly as glamorous as they make it out to be on TV. I’ll just put it that way.

Robyn: Absolutely. And we've done enough research to know that that's completely true. But he- so he's the- he's the chef, he's the grocery shopper. He's the everything food and our family is- is him. And we try as much as possible to- to make it about family, you know, as far as what that means, like how I can be involved, how we can do it together, how it can be a way of just caring and- and connecting for one another. So I hear what you're saying like, oh, this is so great. This is so amazing. And also know, and you do too, that the families that you and I know it's like some families just think about food, or think about a meal time, or prep, or even just imagine going to the grocery store, and instantly parents are instantly like, you know, caught in this like fight flight thing, right.

Chef Kibby: They flip their lid! 

Robyn: And so yeah, totally they flip their lid even just imagining it, let alone the practicality of like okay, so how do we use cooking, and food, and food preparation, and food serving as a way to build connection. So for that family that's like this sounds good in theory, but oh my gosh, no way. Where do you start? Where did those families start?

Chef Kibby: Absolutely. Well, the first thing I want to say how amazing it is that your husband has that. Because, again, the other thing that makes me unique in this kind of mental health space, and parenting space, and trauma informed parenting space is that I'm a dude. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Chef Kibby: I'm a dad. There aren't very many dads out there making their voices heard in this space. Because let's face it, it's- it's a little bit harder for us. And so the tremendous opportunity that your husband has, because he is already comfortable in the kitchen, to be able to have a method to communicate love, and support, and- and compassion, and modeling behavior to your children. Yeah, that's amazing. So that's- I'm so happy for your family that he has that. Now for those other families that, like you said, they kind of flip their lid when they start thinking about cooking. I think that's why when, as I'm developing this- my signature training program around cooking is connecting, it really has to start with a mental shift. I think that's the case for everybody. Even for me. Even for someone who is very comfortable in the kitchen, I had to make a mental shift too. Because for me, cooking was- it was something for me, it was a therapy for me. It was I want to impress my family, I want to validate for myself that I can still call myself a chef, I want to have the picture perfect Instagram photograph to place on my social media feed to get all those likes, and comments, and follows. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: In a sense, I had to put that aside, too and replace it with something even better. And that's the connecting power. And if I'm being completely honest, that- that kind of self esteem and- and self motivation that I get from cooking has been a barrier for me, even in my professional career, I had a hard time trusting other people to do things for me or with me. So a lot of trust issues built- built into me, you know, working on my own attachment and insecurity issues from- from my own childhood. Which again, this- this whole process of learning about how to be better attuned to my children is also teaching me to be better attuned to myself. So it’s rocking, it’s awesome!

Robyn: Absolutely, absolutely. [overlapping conversation] It's amazing how it comes out too, right? 

Chef Kibby: It is, it is. 

Robyn: That our unique gifts and the way we uniquely move through the world, and for me it's not cooking it's other things. But I that that stuff comes up in those unique- unique places that we- that we exist in the world. I love that.

Chef Kibby: Absolutely. So whether- whether someone is comfortable in the kitchen or not, everybody is going to have to make a little bit of a shift because I think we as a culture, as a society has forgotten what cooking can be for our relationships. It's more than just saving money, which it can. It's more than just saving time, which- which it can. It's more than just teaching our children about these independent life skil- life skills, which it is. But it's the- the relational building blocks that used to be commonplace just a few generations ago, that we've kind of missed out on. And so again, whether you're coming from a place of “I hate cooking”, or “I can't cook” to a place where “I really can cook, and I want to do this for my family”. In either camp, there's going to be some mindset shifting that has to take place. And- and that's why again, I'm trying to create content through my podcast, with my youtube channel, through my training to help people walk through that process. If you have a child with a diagnosis of something, whether it's a mental condition or a physical condition, and you have a doctor who says, you're going to have to do XYZ, in order to help your child to improve and to thrive and to be resilient later on in life, would you do it? Of course you would. And so if I can get people to the place where they can understand and realize this is something not only is it good, but I would say it's almost necessary for some of these children to experience the healing, and growth, and resilience that we want for them. And if that's the case, it doesn't matter if you don't know how to cook or if you don't feel like you have time to cook. Those are things that you can begin to change in your own- in our own neuroplasticity that we have as parents and begin to shift our motivations to say, it's not that I don't have time, it's that I haven't made time. It's not that I don't know how, it's I haven't taken the time yet to know how and because I know this is what's best for my child, I'm going to- I'm going to move everything in order to make that happen.

Robyn: Yeah, that's such a great way to just reframe everything, too. That I- a couple years ago, I took out of my own vocabulary, “I don't have time to XYZ”, whatever it was. I just just like, that's not true, I have time to do anything I want to. It's where does that land, I don't want to say it as simply as on my list of priorities. So there's a lot of privilege that gets kind of implicit in that kind of conversation. But, you know, having the space to step back and go, if this is important to me, I will figure out a way to, you know, make time and space for it. And I think that that can- that is true more often than most- we usually think it is.

Chef Kibby: And if I can do something, again, through my content creation, through courses, through group coaching, to make that more feasible, easier, and to get them to see better results than they would on their own, then that's- that's more benefit that they're gonna get out of it.

Robyn: Yeah. So I think I'm hearing kind of number one step for almost everyone is some mindset shifting about your own role in cooking, your own role in food prep, your own the way you approach it, what the goals are, yes? 

Chef Kibby: Absolutely. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So after- what would you say after that, like, what- what do you do after that?

Chef Kibby: After you do that, then it's kind of coming up with a strategy, you know, how do we start implementing this? And that's where I've been so fortunate to discover a- a framework that was developed by another science based research based organization called Search Institute. 

Robyn: Okay.

Chef Kibby: And they created something called the developmental relationships framework, I don't know if you're familiar with it or not. 

Robyn: Nope.

Chef Kibby: But I happen to, you know, in my- my Google searching and whatnot, came across this list of five different categories of activities of things that children need to be communicated to, in order to feel accepted and empowered, and to build kind of the- the mental and developmental assets that they need in order to- to grow healthy and strong and resilient later on in life. And within these five categories, there were 20 activities. And what I love about this framework is that it was voiced from the child's perspective. Like to be able to listen to your child say, “I need you to do X”, “I need you to do this”. And what really blew my mind when I found this framework is that all 20 of these activities could be incorporated into the shared act of cooking and eating with our children. And so I had kind of this research base, you know, 25 years of developmental research that I could easily incorporate into this idea of cooperative cooking. And that is the- the framework that I use for my free email challenge. The 20 day Cooking is Connecting challenge, I then took that email sequence and turn it- and turning it into a series of podcast episodes. And so each of those activities, talking about the activity, what it means and then framing it within the kitchen, and giving my audience two or three or more activities within the kitchen that they could use to implement that strategy. And from there, you know, continuing to spread it out and to give my audience more tools to make it easier for them to- to implement this. As we are recording this right now, I am working on developing what I'm calling the Cooking is Connecting Family Workbook. So it'd be an actual kind of an activity book that takes all of these things and puts it down on paper so that families can look at it and say, okay, for activity number one, here's a, b, and c, let's find the one that's going to work best for our family, and figure out a way that we can implement it and put some, you know, put some- some numbers behind it, put some dates on it, and make an actual commitment that we are going to do these things. And that's kind of the process I'm going through right now is creating some- some resources that families who have kind of are already buying into the idea that they need to be cooking, eating with their family, to give them some activities that they can begin to incorporate into their lives no matter what their skill level is in the kitchen. You know, anybody can understand that if they want to be present and attune to their children while they're in the kitchen, they need to remove distractions. You know, or that they need to monitor their tone of voice or that they- they can give their children choices. You know all of these things, when you hear it, it makes sense but to actually put it together into a complete kind of a framework where we're kind of checking all the boxes and giving our children what they need to develop strong mental health and co-regulation and resilience is an amazing gift that I can give to other families.

Robyn: Well, no kidding. And I love hearing, too, the the way that this model that you have is bringing together what I would call, both like the being and the doing. That so many programs have lots of doing involved, but don't spend enough energy with the- with the being like the just our own energetic way we're approaching the experience in our kids. But then some programs have too much of the opposite, right? Like not enough doing. And so parents- parents who are really stressed too, right? Like the parents, you and I know are- I mean, all parents are stressed. And then you add in the behaviors that emerge from having a history of trauma, and there's just a whole new level- level of stress. So finding ways to stay really anchored in the being, right? Like this is really about connection and co-regulation. And also, here's very clear concrete steps are things to do. Because it's hard to think of those things when you're stressed or overwhelmed or doing something new or vulnerable. And for a lot of people, I assume that coming into the kitchen and doing stuff with- with- with food and with nurturing, like that's feeling super vulnerable.

Chef Kibby: Yeah, it is, for me, it's been very vulnerable for me. Again, the kitchen was- was my place. So to invite someone- someone else into the kitchen, let alone a child who knows very little about what to do from a productive standpoint in the kitchen is incredibly vulnerable. 

Robyn: Right.

Chef Kibby: But I think you would agree with me that in order to build co-regulation, you have to have that vulnerability. It is an absolute necessity. And the great joy and blessing that has been for me is to not only to model appropriate behaviors to my children through this activity, but to also give them an opportunity to see me being vulnerable. I- yes, I am a chef and I'm a professional of 25 years of experience, I still mess up in the kitchen. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: And so I get this amazing opportunity to model myself going through this process of- of experiencing failure or setbacks, and to give them an opportunity to empathize with me and to maybe even work with me to invite them in and say, “hey, kiddo, I really messed this up. What do you think we can do to fix this?”. I mean, we don't get those kinds of opportunities elsewhere. And that's been one of the big kind of life changing moments for- for my relationship with my children. Let alone just allowing myself to have more opportunities to give them some yeses.

Robyn: Yeah.

Chef Kibby: To give them some affirmation that, yes, I want you to be with me, yes, you can do this. Yes, you can chop up the vegetable scraps for the chickens, it doesn't help me make food, it doesn't help me prepare the dinner. But we're together. We're modeling behavior. We are, you know, she's modeling even, you know, the way I'm holding my knife, you know, learning the pencil grip and the bear claw to cut safely. And that's- that moment when my child came up to me and asked if she could cut my vegetable scraps, was- was the game ship, was the ah-ha moment for me in my life and in my relationship with my child. Because I understood better what the connecting power of the kitchen could be. It's not necessarily about even getting them to help me make food. It's just- it's just being together and having these interactions and these moments, and I want other families to experience that. And like I said, it's- it's going to take making that mental shift, and then learning kind of the, like you said, the doing and the being, to be able to do that. And I think kind of the final piece is then finding a way of sticking with it, you know, finding some way of being accountable to it. Whether it's having the framework to- to hold each other as- as- as spouses or partners as to hold each other accountable to doing it, or even having a clinician like yourself to say, hey, we're going through this process. I want you to be, you know, holding us accountable to be doing this on a regular basis. Or for those that feel like they need something a little bit more than that, to be able to address kind of the cooking issues as well, to be able to provide them with either one on one coaching access with me or doing group coaching. So it's a little bit more affordable and you can kind of walk alongside other families that are trying to do this together and feel like you're not alone. Because that can be a real struggle as well. Whenever you're trying to make any sort of life change, it's helpful to know that there are other people that trying to do it alongside you to get that encouragement and support.

Robyn: Oh, absolutely. And that's such a huge part of the work that I try to do out in the world too is just bringing people together and- and, you know, people whose have parents- or people who are parenting kids with such significant behavioral challenges feel totally alone. You know, like, there's nobody else who's ever experienced anything like this before and to find opportunities for- for people to see each other kind of reflected through one another and come together with this kind of shared commonality. I love this moment of like, without even having words exchanged, you know, they can look at each other and be like, “oh, I got it, you got me. Yeah, you understand these things that nobody else ever would, even if I could find the words”. And then to do that in a way that you're infusing with this inherently, again, connecting, nurturing, playful, and joyful experience that is cooking. Yeah, I just love it. I love it. Tell me about like a tip or two maybe for parents whose kids are not really impressed with this idea. [laughs] Parents can make the mind shif- different mind set shift. And, you know, we can prep ourselves with the here's what we're gonna do. But what about the child who's not willing or interested or even more than just not interested, but kind of overtly critical, or shaming towards the parents talk about that? How do we- has there been any way that you've found like to help these more, let's just call them resistant children?

Chef Kibby: I think that'd be the case with any sort of therapeutic method. You know, not all methods are going to be for everyone and every family’s situation is going to be a little bit different. One of the things to keep in mind is that integrating your child into the kitchen doesn't necessarily mean immediately putting a knife in their hands and getting them to do prep work. There are so many kind of pathways you can take to get into it. It could be setting the table, it could be washing the dishes, it could be going shopping, it could be planning the menu. And so there's a lot of different things in the process of creating food and bringing food together that, again, kind of integrate different aspects of academics and different pursuits. There's math, there's chemistry, there's physics, there's biology, there's budgeting, communication, language arts, problem solving. You know, all of those things. And so part of that is being attuned to the interests of your child and see which of those interests provides you with an avenue, an open door in order to begin to integrate them into the process. And yeah, that's one of the things with a program like this is it's not a one size fits all sort of- sort of thing. And you know, there's 20 activities in the developmental relationships framework. But that doesn't mean you have to start with one and then make your way to 20. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: It's, you know, maybe we're going to do three this week, and eight, and then 11, and then 15. And two kind of go together, we'll do those together this way. And so it's not kind of a start at point A end at point B, sort of scenario, as with, I think, a lot of other therapeutic methods. It's going to take some, some attunements, and some trial and error. But if you're doing all of it from a standpoint of allowing yourself to be vulnerable to your child and seeking connection, I would- I would hope that- that they would honor that. Again, children from hard places, their wiring is a little bit disrupted. And so it's a long process. And I'm still going through it. I mean, I can talk about how passionate I am about this, about this methodology and about this framework. But I'm still going through it myself, and I still have hard days with my kiddos. But again, the mindset shift is there. And so that makes the hope still there as well. And obviously, what I'm doing is in no way to be a replacement for therapy. I think it's an integration with counseling and group coaching and things of that nature that is going to make it truly successful. And that's what I've experienced, again, to have a trauma informed TBRI practitioner counselor involved in our family’s life has given us kind of that accountability that we need from someone with outside eyes looking in to be able to tell us and show us what's working, and what's not working, and to be able to direct our efforts to what we feel is going to be the most productive. One of the most interesting things again about- about this cooking thing is that it can actually change children's mindsets around food and cooking and picky eating can be something that is an issue or children that are a little bit adverse to certain types of foods that could potentially be overcome. Because one thing that I've seen, I don't know if you've seen this in your family as well, is that if your child has had any hand at all, whatsoever, in any part of the meal process, whether it's scrubbing the potatoes, or maybe just walking the groceries in from the car. They'll say I helped cook. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Chef Kibby: And it's all it takes, it doesn't have to be hard, it can be something really simple to begin to see the results. So some of it is just you're taking the pressure off of yourself to feel like you don't have to have this kind of Wolfgang Puck moment with your- your child- 

Robyn: [laughs] Yeah 

Chef Kibby: -in order to begin to make connections happen, and hopefully along the process, they will become excited about food and cooking. And if they don't, if they don't want to be a professional chef, that's fine. It's not about the cooking. It's about the connecting

Robyn: Exactly! Well, yeah, I love so much of what you just had to say is like, first of all, yes, of course, nothing is ever right for every family. Absolutely. And then, so much of what we're going, you know, looking for isn't necessarily we've made this beautiful meal together, although that surely is amazing. And it's all the- it's all the pieces that go inside it, it's all the moments of rupture and repair that happen. It's all the opportunities to look for attunement, it's all the opportunities to look for scaffolding and all these ways that kids and adults, everybody, has this opportunity to just be seen and known. Whereas like in the kitchen and cooking and food, and it can be a vehicle and then have all these other, again, amazing, we'll have to come back and talk more even just about what it means, you know, the nurturing piece and all of that. But even if we just look at it strictly from almost like this activity experience, and it is so much more than that, but just yeah, the way, just like you talked about the rupture and repair piece and- and getting to know one another and seeing, you know, being so clearly con-, you know, connected and attuned without having this big, overarching agenda.

Chef Kibby: Yeah, and I love that you said that because that actually brings to mind this idea that if along the process, you as a parent, if you're listening, and you begin this process, and you invite your child to do something in the kitchen, and they are resistant to it, that's a piece of information. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: If you're- if you're being a detective right then and there. That's a piece of information that you can dig into to try and understand what is the- the need behind the- the behavior. So even that, even their resistance to doing something in the kitchen can be a positive if you're looking at it from the lens of connection. So I'm glad you brought that up. You're teaching me here.

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah, no, I just I really, again, I just keep having these like, oh, what about this? What about this? Okay, so one last thing. And then when we wrap up today, we'll definitely have to start talking about what are we going to talk about next time. But I'm thinking about again, in my own family, because my husband is so connected to cooking as his way of caring for not only himself, because it's a hobby that he loves, but caring for us, right? He gets a lot out of like, this is my part of my role in the family. And this is how I show y’all how much I care about you and love you. And when he has spent whether it's five minutes preparing something super simple, or an hour and a half preparing something, you know, more complicated. And, you know, my son gives any hint, it's sometimes it's way more than a hint. Sometimes it's a very overt, like, eww, I don't like this. Do you have any kind of final parting words of connection for those parents? Because you just- we've already said like cooking and preparing and serving something is so vulnerable. It's like you take your heart and just like hold it next to it what you're serving in for it to be rejected can feel so painful. And I'm a big believer in like that's a valid pain like we-. I'm not in the business of talking people out of their hurts simply because we could look at maybe like where that's coming from with the child. You know, we can do both right? We can look at what- what's driving that child's behavior. We can also really acknowledge that- that to be so vulnerable and to- to so tenderly care for your family and to have it rejected as a very valid hurt. So yeah, just any thoughts on that?

Chef Kibby: And that's a- that's a feeling that I'm sure many other foster adoptive families like myself have- have gone through. There's a reason why the the- the- the churn rate, the- the burnout rate among foster adoptive parents is so high, because it is- it is a huge mindset shift to see the child's behavior and see the needs behind it. It doesn't really come naturally. But again, I think it's that vulnerability that whether- whether it's a good moment or a bad moment, we can see either one through the lens of connection. And if it's something that we can celebrate that we've done together and connect that way, then great. If it's a vulnerable moment where they're reacting in a- in a negative, or I don't want to say maladaptive, because we don't we don't say that anymore. [laughs] But in a way that- that is creating tension. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: Again, we have to be okay with being vulnerable with our children and letting them know how it's affecting us. But also not necessarily putting the blame on them as well. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Chef Kibby: So it's there again, there's no- I don't have all the answers yet, I guess. And that's one of the reasons why I'm a part of your audience, because I so much appreciate the- the knowledge, and experience, and the wisdom that you provide to us in helping to integrate this information into our lives. And I'm hoping to then take that and give other people some- some practical tools to be able to integrate that into our lives. And it's not always gonna go right. It's not always gonna go perfect. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Chef Kibby: But if we're- we’re if we are pursuing it from that mindset of connection, I think the the good is going to outweigh the bad and the connection is going to outweigh the rupture. And like you said, anytime there's a rupture, there's an opportunity for repair, whether it's within the kitchen, or after dinner time to be able to revisit a moment and to let our child know how their- their words or behavior affected us. And, you know, there's, there's always a chance for a do over.

Robyn: Absolutely. And I think you're completely right, like, well, of course, you don't even come close to having all the answers because there aren't any, right? We're just all fumbling through doing the very, very best that we can and, you know, in a way, it's like, well, it probably wasn't a question so much as a just normalizing for everyone listening, that we've all been hurt by, like preparing something, whether it be food or some other, you know, offering and have it get rejected. And you add food into the equation, and then the stuff we talked about at the beginning is like there's just so much energy around food and how all these shoulds and we're supposed to use, we're supposed to able to do this for our family. If I was a good parent, I would be able to feed my kid this way. And my kid would eat this if I was a good pare-, you know? Yeah. And so to just notice, all of these are creating like moments of hurt in us. And they’re- I think that's what I feel so strongly about. They're valid, right? That I've watched so many families come along on this kind of new lens and new way of parenting, and sometimes is unintended byproduct is they shame themselves in this new way. Like, oh, I should know better. Or I know why my child's behavior is like this and it's driven from their own pain. And since it's driven from their own pain, I shouldn't have any. Because like, no, no. We can do both, right? Like we can acknowledge our child's pain, we can make it not about us. And it can be true that it's still hurt. All of those things are valid and welcome and deserve to be cared for. And it feels like this- this thing that you're doing with families is just one more way for that to all happen in this- this messiness, and this humaneness to just be in it to be okay.

Chef Kibby: Yes, life is messy, messy. Parenting is messy. Cooking is messy.

Robyn: Messy, I know, right? [laughs]

Chef Kibby: [laughs] But if we're doing it together, it's even- even if the food doesn't turn out great. Even if the plate isn't something you'd post to Instagram. You have something that you've done with your child and for your child, and whether they can communicate that in words or not, it's communicating something to them, and they're receiving it. And it's beginning to refine and reform those neural pathways in their- their mind to know that they're safe, that they're loved, they're empowered. And to have that voice given to me to reflect that to my children, I am so so grateful. And I want to teach that language to as many other parents as I can. 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I feel so confident this is the first of many times that we will connect what you're doing is just amazing. I truly, truly amazing. So the first thing I want you to do right now is just, and I'll put it on the show notes, of course, so people have it in writing, but tell people where they can come find you.

Chef Kibby: Well, my personal brand is @CookinWithKibby, I had to leave off the G because it was too many letters for Twitter. CookinWithKibby, CookinWithKibby.com, you can find me, I'm most active on Instagram. So if you want to follow me there and slide in my DMs and let me know how I can help you. That's a great place to reach me. The cCooking with Kibby podcast is available on all podcast platforms. I also have a YouTube channel as well, where I have some videos on there some- some free content, including some videos that are taken out of my- my first online course, which is Knife Skills for Busy Families. Because if there's one thing that intimidates most people getting into the kitchen first is learning how to handle a knife safely. And so that's a great place for folks to start. But yeah, find me on my podcast, slide into my DMs on Instagram, or sign up for my email list. And the Cooking is Connecting 20 Day Challenge is on that website as well. So, again, thank you so much for letting me share my heart with your audience. I really appreciate it.

Robyn: Well, I- yes, absolutely. I thank you for- for coming and connecting with my audience and really for being in the world in the way that you are like for being part of this team. You know, I meet people as like, we're- we're out there, we're doing this for these kids and for ourselves. And I have so much gratitude, I of course know how vulnerable it is, I know what it means to be kind of be dedicating your professional life to these kids and these families. And I am just really, really grateful. So grateful for it. So we will do this again, I'm sure, but until then, thank you so much. 

Chef Kibby: Thank you. 

Robyn: See, I told you that would be fun! I love to see what creative and joyful ways people can capitalize on their unique strengths to make a huge difference in the world. And that's exactly what Kibby is doing. I'm so grateful he connected with me on Instagram, and then agreed to be on the podcast. And of course, I'm really, really grateful for you. Thank you for your commitment to kids, families and to making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships. I'll see you next week.