What Does Co-Regulation Really Look Like? {EP 81}

Robyn: So today, what I really feel inspired to chat with you about is getting like nitty gritty, and demystifying the concept of co-regulation. So my plans are- is that we'll talk about like regulation, what that even is, ‘cuz there are some misconceptions about that. And then what co-regulation is based on you know what regulation is. And then we'll look at a real life example. Of course, as always, you know, if you'd rather read, there's a pretty lengthy summary, detailed summary over on my blog on my website, and then the full transcript is there as well. So that should be at RobynGobbel.com/coregulation. So if you also like to go back and read, I'm somebody who likes both. I like to listen to things and then also see the words, that really helps with my own integration. So just know that that's there, RobynGobbel.com/coregulation. 

Robyn: So recently, after we let- invited new Clo- Club members in back in March, I created like this deep dive roadmap of how new members could start to kind of work through all the content that's in The Club. Hopefully, in a way that's helping them feel a little bit less overwhelmed, because there's so much content there. So I was making this roadmap, and one of the you know- one of the steps on the roadmap journey is like let's talk about regulation. What even is regulation? And I realized that I didn't have like a standalone masterclass, or a standalone podcast that really broke down regulation, and co-regulation. I talk about it so often that it's weaved into almost everything I talk about. But- which is great. But that's not helpful for, like ‘go here to learn about co-regulation’ kind of episode. So that's what I'm going to do here. I'm also hoping that those of you who are professionals and helpers who are listening, that maybe this can be kind of a go to resource for you to give to the parents that you work with. I've seen that discussion a lot happen and therapist groups lately and professional groups lately that really wanting to give better examples to parents about what co-regulation actually is. So hopefully this can serve as a resource for you as well. I do think there's a lot of really great videos that exist out there that all show folks about co-regulation. Of course, this is a podcast, I can't really show you videos, though, if you're a Club member, know that there are videos over in The Club. There's like a pic of this co-regulation, kind of example, resource post and a kind of a collection of different co-regulation videos that I have found that I think are helpful. So again, If you’re a Club member, know that that's there, and you can go check that out. But yeah, I'm just so often getting folks at this point, like are familiar with the concept of regulation and co-regulation. And they're saying things like, yeah, I want to co-regulate my kid or I understand that I should be co-regulating. But I also remain really confused about what that actually looks like. So that's what I'm hoping to demystify today. Now, I think it's really important that we talk about what regulation actually is, before we move into talking about what co-regulation is. There's a lot of definitions of regulation out there. Some of them are accurate, some of them are inaccurate. So often we conflate the word regulation with calm and I'm not going to go into that today, because I have a podcast episode that addresses that exactly how regulation does not equal calm. It was- it aired in May of 2021. It was with my guest, Lisa Dion. It’s on my website, it's RobynGobbel.com/LisaDion. So let's just state that upfront. Regulation does not equal calm. 

Robyn: So what is regulation? Okay, regulation really at its core, it's a word that applies to all sorts of things. And it's just really about balance, keeping something in balance. So for example, the common example I always give is the thermostat, right? The thermostat in my house helps to regulate the temperature. The thermostat keeps track of the temperature, it monitors it, that's an important piece of regulation, it monitors what it's supposed to be keeping track of. And for the thermostat, it's the temperature. And then when the temperature reaches, like, a certain data point, right, it gets too hot or too cold. Basically, it tells the air conditioner or the heat to kick in so that the temperature can change back to the desired setpoint. Right? So the thermostat monitors the temperature in my home. And then it works together with the heating or the air conditioning system to change the temperature when it's needed. So I am not an HVAC specialist. Like I know almost nothing beyond what I've just said. But when I'm talking about regulation, and when a lot of the folks in like the parenting world, and the mental health world, and the nervous system world. What we're talking about is regulation, balance, monitoring, and modifying, according to Dan Siegel's words, to notice and change the energy and arousal of our autonomic nervous system. And at its most basic level, y'all this is such an oversimplification, but at its most basic level, the autonomic nervous system has like an accelerator- an accelerator and a brake. And regulation simply means that that accelerator and the brake is mostly in balance. And that there is an ability to both monitor the accelerator and the brake, and then change it if needed to give a little more accelerator, give a little bit more break if it's needed. Okay? So at its core regulation: noticing, changing, keeping something in balance. And I- when I talk about regulation and regulation, yes, I'm talking about energy in arousal and activation in our autonomic nervous system. So much of our body's regulation is automatic, right? It's happening without us even thinking about it. For example, when I'm exercising, right? Like, my autonomic nervous system notices that I need more energy. And it increases things like my heart rate and my respiration and so many other things like I really can't even imagine what goes into what helps fuel my body in response to then, you know, the exercise that I'm doing. Because I'm not an exercise scientist, I'm a social worker. So I know enough to know that yes, my body is responding automatically, and helping to fuel that in all sorts of different ways. Alright, so again, so much of regulation is just happening automatically, like I don't step on the treadmill and think, ‘okay heart, beat faster’. And even if I did think that, I'm not really going to have a whole lot of control over that, right? Like it's all happening automatically in response to other things that are happening in my body. What- we're going to talk about, from here on out is not air conditioners or treadmills, but it's about how the autonomic nervous system fuels the energy and arousal that's underneath emotional expression that tends to be- the parents I'm working with are talking about what the therapist and training are talking about. How energy and arousal is underneath emotional expression. 

Robyn: Okay, so we've defined regulation, let's look at how regulation develops. Because if we think about it, we know just intuitively that infants are born with lots of capacity to regulate. But then lots of places where they aren't so great at regulating, right? A lot of the autonomic nervous system is developed, and really strengthened, in- in utero, but then it really is continuing to get strengthened and refined as the infant grows and develops, becomes a toddler preschooler, and so on and so forth. So think of it this way, like healthy- healthy, full term, infants have a lot of ability to regulate their heart rate, right? Like, there's a lot- you know, healthy, full term infants burst into the world, and they're okay. Their autonomic nervous system is keeping them alive, right? But they're still developing some pieces, right? Like, for example, temperature is really often the first thing that comes to mind, right? Because we put little hats on babies and we swaddle them and we work- you know, we have to provide them with some regulation from the environment, while their autonomic nervous system is still really developing until their own nervous system can take over the regulation of things like temperature, right? And then obviously, we are still doing so much to support infants’, emotional regulation. I mean, think of it this way, babies are super good at crying, but not so good at soothing. At least not on their own, right? Adults have to help them. Adults have to help infants with soothing. And a regulated adult has to help an infant with soothing, right? That now we're going to start to think about what is really involved in co-regulation. A regulated adult offers some soothing to the infant who's still developing their own inner regulation. 

Robyn: Okay, so thinking- thinking about how infants are still developing their own regulation, that doesn't mean infants are still trying to figure out calm, right? Like infants have calm down, right? They have crying down. They have calm down. They've activated down. They're there, they've got these two states, kind of implicit for them. What they struggle with is moving back and forth between them, right? Like, as an infant gets really activated and aroused. They need help coming into rest again, right? So that's how- that's the regulation piece regulation is, not calm. It's the shifting back and forth, it's the balance, and then the ability to change. 

Robyn: Okay, so we know infants are kind of expressing their activation, often by crying. And when they do this, they really need a caregiver to come in and sooth them, right? That like, the fact of the matter is newborn babies, if we just watch them cry and do nothing to help them, they aren't going to soothe until they get so overwhelmed that they sort of just collapse. But that's not co-regulation, right? What co-regulation is- it was when an infant's expressing their energy and arousal and activation, usually by crying, but not always. The caregiver comes in to soothe them. Okay, so at its most simple form, that's co-regulation. Two people coming together and one is regulated. 

Robyn: But let's get more granular. Okay? That's gonna, I think, start to make this make even more sense and then start to apply it to your real world. Maybe some of you listening are parenting, like healthy, full term infants. But my guess is that's not what most of you are doing and why you tuned into this podcast. However, I think it's so important to understand, like, what were the origins of co-regulation, what it looks like in a healthy full term infant. Because we can take from that and extrapolate it into ‘okay, so what does it look like, with my five year old who's screaming at me, my 10 year old who's, you know, peeing in weird places, my 16 year old who is being oppositional defiant, not following any of the rules’. Like we can look at the origins of what co-regulation is. And then think about how does that apply to bigger kids with bigger behaviors? Okay, so at its core, though, there's two people. One's regulated, one’s not. So again, if we're thinking about parent child, kind of dyad. A baby has some activation in their nervous system, right? And they cannot modify that activation, right? They don't know how to change it without help. Okay, so they need help. Their regulation isn't strong yet. Now, a caregiver helps them. And that caregiver isn't just calm. So again, if you've ever parented an infant, really think back to these moments. A baby starts crying. And the first thing that the caregiver does, actually isn't just calm. It that they experience some of that own activation in their own nervous system. And that allows them to match the baby. So there's almost this little burst of like, ‘oh, the baby's crying’, right? There's this burst of sympathetic energy of activation that happens in the caregivers body. This is really important for a lot of reasons. One is sort of propels us, like, into motion. Without it, we wouldn't do anything. But the other thing is that for a brief moment, the baby and the caregiver sync up. Their levels of activation match. The caregiver then regulates their own activation, right? Like they can't keep going up, up, up, up, up, up, up in their own activation, because you know, as well as I do, if you've ever tried to calm down a crying baby, while you're super activated, it just doesn't work very good. And happens all the time. There's no judgment. I've parented a baby before too. And sometimes, I was able to offer my regulation and sometimes I wasn't because I was just too fried. But the reality is, is that when the caregivers aren't able to kind of regulate their own nervous system, they're not very successful at helping a baby do that. So that's where the caregiver first has that match of the energy, but then regulates their own activation, so that they can connect up with the baby. Okay? 

Robyn: So the caregivers activation kind of comes down, so that in a way, then they're now energetically lending their deactivation of their nervous system to the baby. Okay? But again, let's take this, even like one step further, looking at the nitty gritty. What's really happening here is that a caregiver who is co-regulating their baby and caregivers don't co-regulate their babies 100% of the time. There's lots of times where excellent caregivers just can't be regulated enough to co-regulate their baby, that's just about being human. But when co-regulation is kind of rockin’ and rollin’ the way that is helpful to infant’s development, the caregiver can do both. The caregiver can stay slightly activated, in a way that's really matching their baby's activation, helping that baby feel really resonated with and really seen, and known. While also offering soothing to that baby, okay? It's almost like the caregiver can keep their foot in, like, proverbially both places, right? The place of, ‘I feel you, I'm here with you, I'm with you in this activated place’, and also a foot in a place of, ‘I can soothe myself and soothe you, too’. 

Robyn: Okay, so that's kind of step one. But we all know that we don't take step one, and then we're on the fast path towards, like, a calmer baby, right? Like, you know that this is not a straight line process. It's not a straight- straight line process in babies. And it is definitely not a straight line process in co-regulating older kids and especially older kids with really vulnerable nervous systems or who have attachment trauma in their histories. It would be nice if it was true, that we could just pick up a crying baby, and they were instantly soothed and it was all over. But it's just not how it works, right? There's this little dance that happens. And the caregiver is continually responding to how the baby responds, right? So the caregiver takes a step in the dance of co-regulation, and then the baby does something, right? Responds in some way. And then the caregiver responds to that. And then the baby responds to the caregiver, and then the caregiver responds to that, and then the baby responds to the caregiver, and the caregiver responds to that, and so on, and so forth. This is mostly, like, unconscious. We're not necessarily thinking of these micro moments steps because in many circumstances, they are happening in micro moments. They're just happening as we move in and out of synchronicity. What's super important to think about here is that there's this, what do the- do scientists call this mutual influence. The caregiver responds to the baby, the baby responds to the caregiver, the caregiver responds to the baby, the baby responds to the caregiver. And the next step can't be predetermined, right? Because it's based on what happens next. And it's unknown until it happens. That's co-regulation. That continued presence and attunement of the dance. That's one of the reasons it gets so hard to give parents really specific ‘do this, do this, do this’, like step by step instructions on how to respond to kids when kids are having dysregulation. That one of the- you know, one of my major values is to teach parents what they're looking for. What the goals are. How to feel into what's happening. So that they can be fully present in this dance. This back and forth. This I do something, you do something, I do something, you do something because I don't know what's about to happen next, and neither does a caregiver. And the truth is- is that if we went into the process of co-regulation with a step by step process of this, then this, then this, then this, is that that's basically the opposite of co-regulation, because it's not responding to the dance that's happening. 

Robyn: Okay, so let's look at, you know, what are the ingredients then of cp-regulation? Okay, we've already established that some of the ingredients are that there's two people, one's more regulated than the other. But what else, right? Well, there's physical proximity, for sure, right? You can't co regulate a baby from another floor and your house or really even another room. So there's this physical proximity and the closer you get to the baby, the easier it is and to offer co-regulation up to the point where, oftentimes with tiny little babies, we're picking them up and the proximity becomes skin to skin. Okay, so physical proximity is an important ingredient in co-regulation. And I'm often talking with parents that I work with, about decreasing the distance. And this is hard. But we can't co regulate our kids if we aren't close to them. Another ingredient then in co-regulation is attunement. So attunement means two people who are syncing up with one- with the- with the state of the other. Okay, so the caregiver allows this baby's emotional distress to resonate in their body. And that's attunement. That syncing up of the energy of someone else that gives that other person the experience of feeling really felt. That’s attunement, okay? And then we want to notice that this baby's energy is first matched, the energy is matched. But by a regulated caregiver. Okay? Obviously, sometimes, a lot of the time, caregivers end up joining their baby's dysregulated state, right instead of the other way around. This is normal. This is human. There's no shame, no blame. This is just happens, we just work on it happening less. That's all we do. Okay? But without question, we can co-dysregulate, as well as co-regulate. But when all is going well, a caregiver can match the baby's energy while remaining regulated, which ,of course, does not mean calm. It just means that the caregiver has the ability to stay in balance, right? Regulated, people are connected to themselves, without getting flooded by someone else's energy. They tend to be mindfully aware and present. It's not calm or happy or anything like that. It's connected to self, mindfully aware, present, has the ability to notice, and change, and stay in balance. 

Robyn: All right, so that hopefully feels like a good little summary of what co-regulation really is from this really nitty gritty, granular perspective, when it's kind of easy to see, right? Like when there's a caregiver and a newborn. But what about- what does co-regulation look like with our older kids, or, honestly, even our partners, just other humans who- that we care about that are in our life? Well, it's basically all the same stuff. We just have to look at it through the lens of being with somebody who's not a baby. So first of all, there's proximity. And for kids who are developmentally delayed with regards to their self regulation, they need proximity to a regulated caregiver. Like a lot of proximity to a regulated caregiver. We don't co-regulate a baby from another floor of the house, and we don't co-regulate our bigger kids, or even our teenagers if they're delayed in the development of self regulation, from really far either. So literal proximity to a regulated adult is something I'm always thinking about when I'm thinking about how do we co-regulate older kids. Always looking at kids with dysregulated behaviors through the lens of how far were they in that moment of their dysregulation from a regulated adult? And how often are they away from a regulated adult, because kids with delayed development of self regulation need their, like, regulation cup filled really often, just like babies do. So I'm always thinking about things like ‘where's this kid sitting in the classroom?’, or the behavior problems happening at recess when there isn't a regulated adult, kind of nearby, or at lunchtime, or on the bus. So often, when we look at kids who are having behavior challenges. They aren't in close enough proximity, not just to an adult, y'all, but to a regulated adult. Then of course, if we're going to decrease that distance, you have to be thinking about that piece I just said. And we're not just decreasing distance, we’re decreasing distance to a regulated adult and not perfectly regulated or all the time regulated, that's not reasonable. But to offer co-regulation, it's just a fact that the adult's system- nervous system needs to be experiencing some felt safety itself, and then be able to resonate with that child's intensity. But without getting, like, flooded or overwhelmed or consumed by it. This is hard. This is hard in all settings. This is of course, this is hard in the home, especially there's a lot of chaos going on. Right? This is hard in the classroom. And there's of course, a lot of chaos going on. So yes, think about proximity, but then also think about proximity to a regulated adult, or caregiver. 

Robyn: Then that adult matches the child's intensity and activation while also remaining some connection to themselves and grounded in their own like sense- sense of self and present self. Then there's a dance, right? The adult participates in this dance of co-regulation. That I can't tell you what the steps are. Because I'd have no idea what the next step is going to be because I don't know what this other person is going to do. Right? So what I do teach parents, and this is really, kind of the core foundation of The Club, is how do we grow in our own regulation, our own connections, connection to our own mindful present self, so that we can stay more present and attuned in that dance. Especially recognizing that it's really hard to stay more present and regulated with older, dysregulated kids than it is with tiny, little babies. Right? 

Robyn: Now, the final piece of this is that the adult doesn't give up the dance. Right? Then when there's a misstep, it can feel really enticing to kind of give up or say ‘I'm not doing this dance anymore, forget it, it’s too uncomfortable’. But in co-regulation, the more regulated person doesn't give up the dance, when there's a misstep. You notice the misstep, and then you go with that. And then you notice the next misstep that happens. And then you go with that. And we just keep going. 

Robyn: Alright, so now let's pull out of the metaphor. Let's give an actual example. A real story of co-regulation. So imagine, it's time to leave somewhere and your kid doesn't want to leave. Maybe it's time to leave your house to go to school. Maybe it's time to leave the living room to go to the bedroom for bedtime. Maybe it's time to leave the park. Whatever it is, it's time to transition to do something else your kid doesn't want to and they let you know that. They express their distress, right? Maybe they ignore you, or they run off, or they scream ‘no, I'm not going’, or maybe they just start to cry like hard, intensely tantrum, or if you're at the park, they throw a shovel at you that they were dealing with, right? There's like an infinite number of ways that kids can express their distress. It is really important that we see it that way. We see it as an expression of distress, not as bad behavior. So the first thing we do is resonate with that distress without trying to change it. So that might sound something like ‘ah, you don't want to go. You're so mad, or maybe it's sad, that it's time to go and it's so hard when fun times are over.’ So you notice there was no move to change. It was just a noticing, and acknowledging, adjoining up with what's happening. Now, if you're real lucky, which probably if you're listening to this podcast, you might not be so lucky in these- in this regard. But parents who are real lucky, will have a child immediately sync up into that dance, and kind of agree like, ‘yes, I don't want to go, I was having so much fun’, right? And so now this lucky parent and child are in sync. And they can kind of continue this dance here of matching and attunement, right? And what will almost certainly happen is through the dance of matching and attunement, the child's level of activation starts to lower. This happens kind of automatically. Sometimes, yes, there- it's helpful to take some very concrete steps towards how do we lower activation, which we're really not going to get into here. Sometimes that absolutely is important, but so often, just connecting and joining in this dance of co-regulation, and sticking with the dance of matching and attunement, that starts to lower the activation. And then as parents, we're- again, we're really lucky. And it's happening so beautifully like this, we just stay present and attuned. And notice when the child is connected enough to themselves and to you, that you can kind of refocus back on what the problem was. Was that it's time to leave, right? So we're not ignoring that it's not like, if it's time to leave the park, co-regulation doesn't mean we don't leave. Co-regulation means we match up first, then we sort of return to what the- the quote unquote problem was, which is that it's time to leave. And so now, once we're in sync in the co-regulate- little dance of co-regulation is, is kind of rockin and rollin '. We can revisit that and maybe say something like, ‘it's so hard to leave, I know, but it's time to go home. I'll be disappointed with you. It's fair to be disappointed. We can be disappointed together while you say goodbye to all your friends. And while we get into the car together. And you know what, there's a drink for you in the car. It's all ready for you. I figured you to be pretty thirsty after all this park playing. So after we feel disappointed, we say goodbye to all our friends, we'll get in the car, we'll have a drink, and we'll head home. And I know it's so disappointing. It's so hard when our fun times are over’. Alright, y'all know, I know that those of you listening are- you know, maybe you're nodding your head, but maybe you're also rolling your eyes like ‘yeah, right lady, it doesn't go like that’. Right? I know. I know your kid doesn't fall into that coregulated dance that easily. Right? You might have to spend a lot more time matching their energy before they'll ever sync up. Kids with really vulnerable nervous systems and kids with attachment, trauma, insecure attachment, disorganization in their attachment history also can give very confusing cues. We aren't sure how to be in the dance with them. It almost feels like they're tricking us. Like they're pretending to take one step and the dance. But whoops, that's not what they really meant. And they're seeing if we can keep up with them. That's that feeling- you're not imagining that feeling. That really is what's happening, I totally get that. If that feels like that really describes your kid and your experience trying to offer co-regulation, what I want you to do is head back to the series I did on attachment. I actually did it in June of 2021. But I recently replayed it. So you don't have to scroll too far back in the podcast series to find the attachment series, the whole series is going to be helpful. But perhaps really tuning into the sections on insecure attachment or disorganized attachment could be really helpful. To help you understand, like, what's happening with those very confusing cues and messages that your kids are giving you. Kids with insecure attachment are hoping for co-regulation, but what they're expecting is more dysregulation. And it's this conflict between their hope and their expectation that can cause some really confusing behaviors and lead them- leave them giving off really confusing cues. So I think it's really helpful to understand those behaviors. Like to be able to, like kind of decode what those confusing behaviors are as the conflict between the hope and expectation. While also staying really confident yourself as the regulated adult that all nervous systems really do want to move towards regulation. Even your child’s. So again, if you feel like that describes you- you and your child scroll back. Look for the maybe the episode especially on disorganized attachment, but you can also, if you haven't already, head over to my website and you can grab the ebook that I made that compiled that attachment series into one big, beautiful document that might be even easier for you to like, read and look through. And remember, you can even take notes, sometimes the visuals really help. So the attachment ebook is at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. 

Robyn: Okay, so just to be clear, correlation doesn't have to have words. So that might be something else that's coming up for you is like, ‘I can't use all those words with my kids, they'll tell me to shut up, or they'll chuck something at me so that I stop talking’. Right? Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. And the reality is that the more dysregulated the person that you're with is the fewer words that you want to use. And that applies to all humans. Big ones, little ones, grown ones, young ones, all humans. The more dysregulated a human is, the fewer words that you want to use with them. Right? So yeah, I'm sure you've attempted to connect with and offer co-regulation to a kid who then just screams at you to shut up. Right? And then it's like, okay, so what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to connect, and I'm supposed to give co-regulation. But how can I do that if I'm not allowed to talk? But I promise you, you can attune and you can match the energy without using any words. In fact, even when you do use words, it's all of the things that don't have words. The- All of your nonverbal cues, your body posture, the energy in your- in your body, your facial expressions. It’s all of the- just the energy that's being held in your body that can be felt. It's all of that that's providing the co-regulation even way more than the words. So yes, you can offer co-regulation without using any words. So if your kid tells you shut up. I hate to say it, but my recommendation is that you stop talking. And as a therapist, I learned that the hard way, right? When kids are telling me to shut up, or stop talking, or stop repeating what I say are all the things- you know, like, I needed to be grateful that they were helping me know what they needed in order to be okay. Which was to stop talking. Y’know, so as the regulated caregiver or adult, we can stop talking. We can be nearby. We can sit, if sitting is appropriate. We can keep that energy in our bodies, right? That present, matched, attuned energy, but that's regulated, and still not say anything. 

Robyn: So in my own family, there is absolutely like a tipping point of dysregulation of my kid where I just have to stop talking, I can't say anything, period. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. If I did attempt to say something, even if it was very regulated, it would just make things worse. It wouldn't be a point of connection at all, it would be continued to be points of disconnection. And I want to say things. Because sometimes when he's dysregulated, he's saying things that aren't true, or he's accusing me of things that I'm not doing, or he just has an inaccurate perception that is contributing to his dysregulation. So I can feel defensive, and I want to give him the right information so that he can see, you know, what's really true. And then hopefully, that will bring down his dysregulation. But that's all pointless. All right? The only words that I end up using when my kid, kind of, crosses that tipping point, sound like, Can I get you a drink? Would you like a snack? I'll bet you're thirsty, can I get you a drink? Things like that. So matching the energy doesn't have to have words or gestures or actions. We hold the energy in our bodies. So we match the energy, and then maybe offer a gesture of connection and co-regulation, like a drink or a snack. And you don't even have to use words for that you can simply bring a drink, or a snack. 

Robyn: Alright, one more thought here. Before I start to wrap up this episode is, I want to talk super briefly about the difference between passive and active co-regulation. So far, mostly what I've talked about is what I would call active co-regulation, like the regulated adult is doing something to offer co-regulation to that dysregulated child. Co-regulation certainly can look- can feel like there's a lot of doing and I've- I think that's why people want to see examples, or want to see videos. They want to see examples of people doing something. But it's actually really so much more about the being. Most co-regulation doesn't involve any doing at all, right? It's the kind of co-regulation that's happening constantly between two people without us even thinking about it. It's like our heartbeats. It's just always happening. So for example, this doesn't happen much anymore not that my kid’s a teenager now, and an older teenager. But when he was younger, he would get a lot of passive co-regulation by doing his homework at the kitchen bar. So like neither me and my husband were actively involved in his homework, and generally actually wasn't really even paying that much attention to him. But co-regulation was still happening. Right? He was so much more successful staying on task, having a frustration tolerance that he needed to get through homework, if he was in proximity with me or my husband, the regulated adult. We weren't doing anything actively to co-regulate him, it was just the energetic presence. This passive co-regulation is why our kids tend to behave a lot better when we're nearby. I mean, not always, I know, it's not true for all of you. But I- parents tell me so often, and they frame it in this lens of trust, like my kid only behaves if I'm nearby. And if I'm not nearby, I can't trust them. Now, I have a whole other podcast blog about that concept. About how it's so easy to label our kids as not trustworthy when really it's about, they need more active or passive co-regulation in order to stay regulated and connected to their owl brain. So I will put the link to that podcast in the show notes. I'm struggling to remember what the URL is for that. podcast, I think it's RobynGobbel.com/TowerOfRegulation. But I'll link- link up to that. It can feel like that's about trust, it really, though, isn't about trust. It's about our kids having the passive co-regulation that they need to stay connected to their owl brain. Their owl brain, which is where cause and effect thinking happens, and frustration tolerance is- is alive and, cooperation all live in the owl brain. And all of us need some amount of passive co-regulation in order to stay connected to our owl brain. The- The hope is that, as our kids experience more and more co-regulation and that co-regulation impacts their nervous system, that they can connect to the co-regulation that we offer them, that just lives in their own bodies. Right? That my kid, as a teenager, has so much of my co-regulation that just lives in his body, it's helped to develop his, what we would call, self regulation. So that's the goal. That's the point here that as we offer lots and lots and lots of co-regulation to our kids, it changes their nervous system and in a way our co-regulation lives inside of them. And they can turn to that co-regulation, even when we aren't actually with them. But until then, until our kids develop that level of internalized co-regulation, we do have to offer co-regulation more actively, we have to decrease the distance, we have to be very deliberate about offering that attunement, and the matching of the energy. 

Robyn: Alright, so I hope this was helpful. Let me know. Send me an email. Find me on social media. Let me know if this was a helpful way to kind of gran- you know, granularly break down co-regulation. Now. We don't know each other. So we're not workshopping out the specifics of your situation. And unfortunately, that is just one of the limits of a medium like podcasting, specifically around a concept like regulation, which is all about this dance. It's about what happens next, and then what happens next, and what happens next. And it's just- I get that there comes a point where you're like, ‘I still just really don't know what to do’, I totally, totally understand that. I wish there was more people out there who were able to help you understand what congregation really is and what it looks like. It's one of the reasons I created The Club. It's so one, I can reach so many more parents and a much more active way. Like, I can connect with you and look at, like, well, what's really happening in your home. And let's see how I can figure this out. And- and we do it mostly in a forum so that everybody else can benefit from it as well. And that I find- find that to be just so, so helpful. But then, of course the other aspect of The Club that really contributes to our ability to regulate our kids is that we're co-regulating one another. So we're getting co-regulation from each other, which is growing our bank of regulation, but also we're having the experience of co-regulation so we feel what it feels like. What does it feel like to be really dysregulated and show up in a place that will attune and match the energy? Right? That we get to exp- be on the receiving end of co-regulation that helps us really embody what is co-regulation. So The Club opens periodically. If it feels like you could use an extra layer of support that goes beyond listening to the podcast, just check it out. It might be exactly what you're looking for, it might not be. But just check it out. It's at RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, we open periodically for new members. You can see on the website, like when we're getting ready to open next. And if you're listening and you're in The Club, I- I’m going to create, you know, like I said, like a, almost like a word bank of co-regulation example videos. So we'll be able to take this podcast and then look at some videos. And then of course workshop together in The Club. What does co regulation really look like? So again, if you're in The Club, just head over there, and we'll chat and connect over there.

Robyn: Alright, y'all, I- if you haven't noticed, the last couple episodes I've done, I've been trying to be just a little bit more free form with how I podcast. I'm still making myself an outline. Otherwise, I'd get ridiculously off track to be relatively incoherent. So I still make myself an outline. But inside that outline, I'm working really hard to just ref- reformat a little bit more and be more conversational, and in a way, more genuinely connecting with you. And so it may get a little rambley at times, and I may misstep and that's okay, because that's exactly what co-regulation is, right? Like there are some missteps that happen and we get back on track. And I'm sure I'll get better at it the word practice, also like co-regulation, we get better at it the more we practice. But just in case you're noticing that maybe the last couple episodes have felt a little different than previous ones. I wanted to give you a little bit of language to why that is. I'm trying to be just more in the moment as I record these podcasts. I think that's so much better for your nervous system. And because there's co-regulation happening even this way, right? Even in this kind of asynchronous, I record a podcast and you listen. There's still co regulation that happens. And so I'm really challenging myself to bring like my fully present, ability to offer co-regulation to you and go a little off script just by having a little bit of structure and an outline. So thanks for bearing with me on that. Thanks for showing up again. Every time you hit play, it's just another- a grown up in the world. Who is saying like I'm committed to kids, I'm committed to myself, I'm committed to felt safety. I'm committed to seeing below behaviors. And I really believe it matters. It matters for yourself, it matters for your kids, but it matters for everyone. The more people we have that are doing this and looking beneath behaviors, and seeing behaviors as you know this- this- misbehavior is as you know, an expression of what's happening in the autonomic nervous and the felt safety, the more like truly the entire world is going to change. And I think in just a couple generations, we could see some really, really, really significant impact. So thanks for tuning in, head over to my website to find all the things I've told you about. It's just RobynGobbel.com. Subscribe to the podcast so that you get the episodes in the future just right there and your podcast player and, of course, tell everyone all about it. I will see you next week.