EMDR with Kids and Families with Attachment Trauma with Deb Wesselmann {EP 231}

Robyn: Welcome everybody. I'm so excited to introduce to you maybe one of my very, very first mentors in the field, somebody who's had such a tremendous impact on my career and the trajectory of it. Deb Wesselman, Deb, thank you. Thank you for agreeing to be with me this morning.  

Debra Wesselmann: Robyn, I am so excited to be here, and it's just so fun to see you again.  

Robyn: I know it's been too long, too long. Tell everyone listening just a little bit about you and your background and your expertise.  

Debra: Well, yes, I am a therapist, mental health therapist. I work with kiddos and families, and I work with adults as well. I started specializing in the area of trauma way back in the early 90s. I got interested because, well, I started life as a school teacher, and I had kids in a neighborhood that was like, really struggling, and there was a lot of drug abuse and alcoholism and so on, and the kids were really struggling with mental health issues. And I was like, Oh, this is what I actually want to do, yes. So I went back to school and and focused all my studies on trauma and then also attachment. We also had adopted one of our children, and so we had this kind of blended family bio and adoption and and so that got me interested in that arena as well. And then so in the by the early 90s, by the late 80s, actually, I was doing private practice and starting to, you know, it's like people gravitate toward you. In fact, what you, you know, that's your interest. I think, yeah. And then I discovered EMDR, in 95 I actually got to be trained. I was one of the probably last people trained by Francine Shapiro herself. So that was really fun and back then, you know, it was considered experimental still, because there wasn't all this research. Now it's no longer experimental, but there were just these tiny booklets we had, and there was really not much about children. And, you know, back then in 95 we didn't even have the term developmental trauma or complex trauma. And so I had this case load of, like, really complex cases and kiddos. And so I and I knew I couldn't just, well, I tried a little bit just, you know, straightforward, doing it by the book, as I was taught. And, okay, that was a fail. So then I, you know, so then I just kept working with it and developing more of a, you know, really attuned approach, and really trying to address all the deficits and the family relationships to create a secure, sort of holding environment when it came to the kids, and that was making a big difference. And then discovering things I could do with EMDR resource work. There's something called Resource work, where you use the slower, bilateral stimulation, and I found I could do a lot with that for building up the connection and the trust and calm and and all of that.   

Debra: Then I started speaking at some of the conferences in Francine called me up one day at home, and I was like, Oh my gosh. What have I done wrong? But she was actually really interested in what I was saying. She did have some questions. I was using terms like ego states. And she said, I don't know why you have to use that term, but she came around later, she did. She came around later with that term. And I heard that she was that I wasn't the only one. She, you know, questioned about that. So then I ended up, I had the luxury of being invited to actually speak at a couple of conferences with her, and I wrote a couple of chapters with her. And I say that was a luxury, because, although it was extremely anxiety provoking, yes, um, I learned a whole ton from her, not only about EMDR, but just about writing and presenting and thinking, you know, thinking and looking at things. I mean, just she was just such a phenomenal person. So yeah, and she was the one that kept in pushing me to do research, research, research research. She was always about that so, so that's really I probably, without her encouragement, I wouldn't have done well first there was a an adult little case study research on using, well, do I use the adult attachment interview to look at attachment categories, pre and post, EMDR, and I did that and then we did our, our big case study, case series study of 23 cases, Kathy Schweitzer and Stephanie Armstrong and I, and Kathy and Stephanie, as you know, really helped me hone the model a lot. And, and they were co-authors on our on our first first book. And, and we did this, this case series study, and got that published. And they are, by the way, they didn't co-write the second book with me, because they are off, they've started all these centers called the cord, where science meets connection, and they're using the model and and training a lot of interns from the university. And. So they're doing a lot of good stuff, but they were, they, they were going to write the book with me. And then they were like, we don't have it in us to just go write a book. We're doing all this other stuff.   

Robyn: Well, I want to interject just quickly, because, you know, I trained in EMDR in 2011 maybe, but I was also working almost exclusively with this population already. I was a young-ish therapist at that time in general, EMDR was like, my first big investment as a, you know, a comprehensive training model, as opposed to, just like these little CEs that you'd take here and there, right? And was just, you know, fell in love with it. And also was like, well, this isn't enough, like, I need to figure something out for these kids and these families. And I think I stumbled upon you y'all's work in a parent forum, like, way back when parent forums were not what they are today, way different kind of a thing. And learned looked y'all up, and I don't know if you remember this, but I called y'all because I was very seriously considering, um, traveling for the three I think it was a three day training at the time, training and me, at that stage of my life, I had a little one. I certainly didn't have extra money laying around, traveling for a training was a huge decision. And I was like, I don't know how legit these people are. I actually called you, which I kind of am. Like, wow, I impressed with my young self, like investigating so thoroughly I called you and I don't remember if I talked to you or someone else, because there's you know, of course, several of you all working there. But obviously I was like, Oh, this is amazing. I must go to this and attended with a colleague. We came together. And I will remember sitting in that training and thinking to myself, one day I want to do what these ladies do. One day I want to, like, teach and mentor and and and have this kind of a role in other professionals lives. And I just, I have such a clear, vivid memory of having that thought. But yes, you all were really my, my first. I had a mentor back in Texas who was phenomenal, but, but y'all were really my first, I think, place of feeling some community, some sense of, oh, these other people are doing the same work. They get it and and even just talking to you over the last 10 minutes, I'm like, oh, I remember so clearly now why I loved these women, because you're just so dynamic and so warm.  

Debra: Oh, that's so nice to hear. I will never forget you, you know, the same reason, like you were such a force, even back then, like you were just this force and so passionate, which I, you know, loved. I just immediately knew, Oh my gosh, she she gets it right away. She knows, she already knows.  

Robyn: Oh man, I was so excited. I think I was one of the first folks to go through registration.  

Debra: You were, it was when we were at our little place, and we just had a little training right there.  

Robyn:  So this has been- this just even being with you here today, and is just so phenomenal. And I think how the model has grown all the lives it's changed how it's impacted me. I mean, I'm not practicing as a therapist anymore, but umdr was my first introduction to, like, the neurobiology of trauma, yeah, and understanding memory processing, which is, like, my favorite. I love memory processing theory, which is very strange, but, you know, it has such a pivotal, foundational impact on me as a person, and then the work that I'm doing. So just so grateful to have you here and for the work that you you've continued to do.  

Debra: And it's wonderful that's that's so great to hear. And your book, by the way, is amazing. I just absolutely love. It recommend all the time and as far as the model, now it's being researched over in the Netherlands.  

Robyn: Yeah, I was reading that in the book that there's this connection you have to this team over in the Netherlands.  

Debra: Yeah isn't that great? They are so much fun, and they it's a little different over there. They don't do adoption with kids who have been removed from their biological home. They do permanent foster care, or they try to make it a long term placement, but also they continue to have connection with the biological parents. It's a different a different system, but it's been interesting to see them apply it with their system, and it's still applicable. And yes, and they are so excited about that over there. And now I've written the chapter with them that will be in an Oxford EMDR book, a book by Oxford Press and and then there's another Oxford EMDR book. I have a chapter in about this as well. So anyway, it's that's been gratifying to see.  

Robyn: Oh, it's just changing so many, so many lives. So let's back up just a touch and talk about EMDR. Specifically. We don't need to do a ton about EMDR, but just kind of enough, especially if someone's never heard of it before. Like, let's just orient everyone to what EMDR is, and then we can move into talking about it with these specific kids.  

Debra: Yeah, and it's funny, most people have heard of it now. If you haven't, you'll probably feel like me when I first heard of it, going, What? What? That crazy thing. So anyway, it's a method that involves, you know, very standardized procedures that we can modify and adapt, luckily. And it involves bilateral stimulation, well, in the form of eye movements. That's where the Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing comes from. But also it can be applied with tactile stimulation, like tapping or these little buzzies kids like to hold, or even swaying them side to side, or audio so and we do all kinds of fun things with watching lights or or shaking maracas or stomping or playing on a drum, Lots of ways we can do the bilateral simulation, BLS, we call it, and science has researched this. And basically they think there's multiple mechanisms of action. So one thing they know is it seems to light up the regions of the brain that light up when we're in our REM sleep, you know, and our eyes are moving back and forth. And we know that REM sleep is vital for our mental health, that we're kind of processing the stuff of the day, and it doesn't have to do with what you're dreaming about, necessarily. So that's kind of weird, um, but we also know that it seems to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, and it also taxes the working memory system, so that things, we start to lose the vividness of the memory. And then, you know, it, we do this processing with the memory, and we move it back into long term storage, where it gets all settled down and it's just not niggling at us anymore. And as we know, even pre-verbal trauma that we don't remember can of course, have big impact, because even though we don't have the episodic memory, we still have the stored, if it's not, you know, resolved, or it's not moved into an adaptive place, we still have that stored, stuck emotion and it affects our perceptions. So yeah, one of the beautiful things about EMDR is it does seem to resolve or move pre-verbal trauma into an adaptive place where it can settle in your nervous system and allow you to function. So that's one of the great things about it, because it's often kids who come from really hard places, they don't have a lot of memory.  

Robyn: So when I think about especially this, you know, okay, let me back up. So when you go and you get EMDR trained, and it's this enormous, enormous training, you aren't really equipped to use it with folks. And from a pre-verbal memory perspective, specifically and as well as folks with such chronicity of traumatic experiences, which, like you said, then it's not necessarily stored as like this memory of this event, but it's impacted our perception of how we move through the world. And we see, of course, parents listening are like, yes, we see that in my kid, who seems to always be expecting the worst, or seems to always think that I'm yelling at them, or they're always in trouble, even if I'm just we're just having, like a regular conversation, but their memory processing and the way that their previous experiences have been stored in their memory networks has kind of like colored the way they see the world. And EMDR can actually impact that.  

Debra: Yes, yes, absolutely. Even without the episodic memory, we can impact that, that coloring, that's exactly right, yeah, the perceptions of the world as a dangerous place, or the perception of adults as mean and always out to get me. Yeah, all and the perception that I'm bad, I'm a bad kid. I'm bad to the core. Yeah, and as we know we can talk, we can talk till we're blue in the face sometimes. Well, no, you're not a bad kid. No, I'm trying to help you. No, and it doesn't change it.   

Robyn: I think this is why I'm for me, memory processing theory explains almost everything. Like, I feel like almost everything can come back to you, like, that's how it was stored in the memory. You know, memory networks, and this is how it is impacting. Then you know whether it's traumatic memory, you know, reactivation, or it is, you know, our mental models the way we're kind of just again seeing the world. Memory Processing Theory has brought so much compassion for me, I think to myself. And then also these kids and these families and their parents, who, of course, also have their own use, so that's impacting how they're experiencing their kids and their behaviors and and so EMDR and pre-verbal traumas is a whole nother thing, but also now we're adding in the attachment trauma. So let's talk about that, and then how your model may- I mean whatever you want to talk about, maybe how it was developed, or just whatever feels important to share about how your model, then, is so unique, and how it supports kids with early, pre-verbal attachment trauma.   

Debra: So, yeah, the attachment trauma, of course, that's so core, yeah, our early attachment relationships now all the way back to John Bowlby, the, you know, the or originator of attachment theory, who talked about the internal working model related to our core attachment experiences. He saw it back in the 50s. And I think people did not recognize how important all that was, and that it's it's actually more than that. It's more than just, like, cognitions, you know, thoughts. It's more this felt sense in the body of not being connected and not being safe and not not being able to relax our nervous system and and enjoy closeness and connection. Because closeness and connection is the source of my fear, right? Yeah, and yet, closeness and connection is what life is all about. So it's so core. So one of the things we have to think about is, if I lack trust in connection, then how do I ever feel safe enough to open up my memory networks and and share my emotions and work on this stuff and process this stuff. I mean, that's really the conundrum. So, so that's where we have to start. So we start with, well, we start with a lot of just family therapy work, working with kids and parents together on some of the basics, as far as you know, regulating our nervous system and that sort of thing. But then we bring in the bilateral stimulation, slow bilateral simulation to deepen positive effect as we gradually find it, and create experiences of connection or closeness, even if they're just for a few moments in the session, we can deepen that with a little bit of the slow BLS and then if there's like some repercussions from that, because sometimes there's a Oh no, I let myself feel close Oh no. And we have to be ready to, you know, manage that and reassure and co-regulate, and we become, you know, a whole secure holding environment for that child, with a therapist and the parents, together with the parents sort of on board and, you know, on the same page in how we have to to help the child feel safe and connected.   

Debra: And it often means tolerating, you know, a lot of the dysregulation, until we can get the child to that place. And once we have the child where they're able to start experiencing that connection in the sessions with a little bit of the slow BLS, and we can sort of expand on that. Then we can move gently into the the work with the with triggers and traumas and actually do more of the fast BLS in the processing. And the gentle way that we do that is, well, we start, usually just with triggers, present triggers, and then we start with their therapeutic narrative, making a narrative, maybe in the third person, or we make the narrative about some bears or dolls and then we can include, and we make it really brief and include lots of positive, adaptive information, and we make it in the third person so it's more manageable to listen to, and we add the fast BLS throughout the narrative as a just an initial sort of beginning to calm the nervous system, related to the story as a whole. Then eventually we move into maybe reprocessing with something that looks more like standard protocol, but still has a lot of, you know, support, and a lot of dropping in little adaptive information, what we call inner weaves, EMDR speak there, but that can kind of support them through that reprocessing and but also in just little pieces, you know, we might reprocess just this, this one little piece of that memory, rather than the, you know, the whole big memory. So we can chunk it down, and we can, you know, sort of little microdose or something, if we think of it that way. Move gradually into that work with just lots of emotional support, wrapping the child, wrapping the child in this, you know, cocoon of support and reassurance throughout.  

Robyn: Yeah, and this can take a long time.  

Debra: It can take a long time. It gets long time. It might take six months, but it might take a year, or it might take two years. You know, it can take a long time.  

Robyn: I have the luxury of connecting with lots of parents all over the world every day. And, you know, sometimes people have challenging experiences in therapy, and sometimes I will, you know, well, first of all, you never know what actually really happened. When somebody is recounting, you know what their experience is, of what happened, but I do occasionally run across experiences where it seems like it all just went way too fast. Yeah, we, you know that there was this, and it makes total. Sense, right? Like we have so much eagerness to help and to relieve somebody of their struggles. And I remember when I was especially new at EMDR, I had this feeling of like, Oh, if you, if you would just let me use the EMDR like, this would get better so much faster, and you would feel so much better, right? There's this like urgency to help people feel better, especially when you feel like you have this tool, yeah, change their life. And really wanting to do that. And, of course, parents, of course, want us, you know, to make an impact as fast as possible, and when we're diving into just like you said, like, how do you lean into trusting? I mean trusting almost anything. Trust that feeling better is possible, trust that if you feel bad, this other person will be with you while you feel bad. I mean, there's just so many things that are really needed.  

Debra: Yeah, if I open up and and start thinking about this awful memory that you're actually going to be able to help me with that, you know? So that's a big leap of trust, a big leap of faith.  

Robyn: Huge leap of faith, especially for kids who early life was really almost predominantly dangerous, especially in that attachment experience, and so there isn't a great memory network to lean into that attachment or connection or relationship could be safe. Do you want to speak to that a little bit like when you have a kiddo who doesn't have a great base memory that you can tap into? So it's almost as if you're kind of starting from scratch.  

Debra: That's exactly what I was gonna say. It's like, it's, it's like, you are going back to day one, when they were born, and you're having a redo and yet, it's harder than taking a newborn, because they already have all these stored experiences. Oh, they're just not quite as cute. Yeah, yes, yes. And they're not and, and they're, you know, saying, Go away, get away. I hate you. And then you're the parent and, and we're saying, oh, you know, you need to just move in and and give them this connection. And the parent is like, but they hate me, and this feels awful. So we have it's feeling awful on both sides. Oh, it's so hard. Yeah, so obviously, you know, the therapist really has a big job in that we have to provide the secure holding environment, not only for the child, but also for the parent. And we we're asking the parent also to trust us that this is going to get better and and we have to help the parent sort of see through the haze of all these difficult behaviors that might include, you know, pooping in the closet or sexually acting out, or, you know, gorging themselves with food and, oh, it's, you know, all of these things that can really be triggering for parents. So we're asking them to trust us and let us connect with them, to help them connect with this really wounded child, and to see through the the haze of all of the behaviors and see that underneath all that is just a really hurt child who really is desperate for connection, even while they're saying, Go away. I hate you. Don't get close to me.   

Debra: And that's a big ask we are asking a lot of people in our offices. So I think on the therapist part, I think we have to also be really self-aware and self-regulating, self-reflective, manage our anxiety that's likely triggered by the anxiety that is in front of us, and so that we can be that really grounded, secure environment and hold that space for the parent where we can attune and listen and validate those really hard feelings and help them see through sort of that hate. Often times, and in the last chapter in my book is about EMDR with parents, because often times, I think what really is key is if parents are willing to do some of their own EMDR work, yeah, and notice and address, kind of explore what's getting activated in them. Not- I don't mean to invalidate parents and and act like, Well, why is that activating? That shouldn't be a big deal. It's, yeah, yes, even just the experience of maybe being rejected by your child is a very traumatic experience. But it also because we've all had long lives and lots of stuff happen, it also may be activating earlier stuff, and sometimes, if we don't really do that memory processing, that keeps getting activated, and we're not then seeing our child as the hurt child, we're seeing the child maybe as our angry father or our angry mother, or that perpetrator that we had in our lives, and so that gets all mixed up in our brain as pigments.  

Robyn: Yes, and it's hard to see. I think that the fascinating thing about memory is that when we activate those old, old, old implicit, you know, neural nets that it doesn't feel like, Oh, this is about my old relationship, or this is about this thing that happened when I, you know, was a kid. It doesn't have that like we can't orient to like the time and space of it. It just feels like this is all about this, and therefore it must be all about this child and the and it just gets so confusing.  

Debra: Isn't that a shame that we don't have, like a little billboard, you know, that tells us this is coming from your three year old memory network. Or, you know, this feeling is all about that guy in your past. I wish we had something like that.  

Robyn: No kidding. Because then, when we don't have that billboard, you know, there's this way that it feels totally about this particular child, but also totally about us, right? Like it's then parents flip so quickly to I'm bad, I'm terrible, I'm an awful parent. Another, you know, it's just so hard to separate from those beliefs, which actually are almost always previously stored. But it is why I love memory processing theory, because I'm like, yes, memory again, that's memory again. There it is. And, yeah, it's so slippery.  

Debra: But anytime, anytime we're having emotion that's really intense. activated memory network.  

Robyn: Which is such a beautiful part of being human, and we wouldn't want that to not be true, right? That our current reality is impacted by our memories like that's such a vital part of our humanity, but also it really trips us up.  

Debra: It really does. But that, you know, here's another thing that people should, should know, and I wish everybody could know, which is, if you get brave and decide to address your memory networks in whatever therapeutic method you you want to use, you know, and there's a lot of therapeutic methods out there, yes, fine. You know this big believer in the EMDR method, but there are others too. But whatever method you use, it is going to enrich your life in so many ways, so many ways. Ah, yeah, I wouldn't be doing this work if I didn't believe that and if I hadn't experienced it for myself.  

Robyn: I mean, I think- I'm sure our stories are not unique, but just knowing the difference in our own bodies, yes, that it ispossible. I think that's why sometimes it's so hard to sit into the therapist chair and just be like, this could be different. This could be different, it really coould. Because we, you know, I've also had so much privilege and having that experience myself right, engaging in excellent therapy and and seeing the transition from something you thought could never be different. And then, oh my gosh, it can,it can be different. I know for me that well, that's helped me do both, like my my job as a therapist, I think helps me trust that process as a client.  

Debra: Yes, absolutely. I think that's that's exactly right, and helps me see just how how vital it is. I feel like I feel very, very fortunate because my own therapy experiences actually started, which is very unusual for someone my age. So I'm 70, and it's very unusual for a,70 year old to say, I started having therapy when I was a teenager, because back then, it was not like a thing. Now it's a thing. And I've teenagers who are like, can I bring my friends in to meet you? Like they're really proud that they have a therapist. Like, it's a of honor. You know, love that really funny. It's so funny. Um, but back then, like nobody was in therapy, and it was like this hush hush thing. But I was lucky, because my dad had a terrible anxiety disorder and and he had a therapist for years, and so in high school, when I started to have big panic attacks. That were, like, debilitating. Thankfully, I had, you know, my dad was like, come on, you need, you need to come meet my therapist. And I was so lucky because EMDR was nowhere in the world, but I did have a therapist who was Rogerian. He told me he followed a man. He said, I follow someone called Carl Rogers. And so he just had this, you know, unconditional, positive regard. And it was so it was my first experience of therapy, and that became a great memory network for me.  

Robyn: I was gonna say, like, Deb, I feel like, in a way, this explains almost everything about you, like a Rogerian way, in your adolescent, of course, makes so much sense.  

Debra: And then I, you know, I saw him into off and on into my adulthood, and he, you know, he sadly passed away when I was an adult at some point. And I've had other therapeutic experiences, including EMDR now, but yeah, that, I think I would be some other person that I don't even know if I hadn't had all of those therapeutic experiences.  

Robyn: Oh, 100% same. I don't know what- I can't fathom what my life would feel like right now if I hadn't had the therapy, the therapy. I've been so lucky, and living in Austin was so lucky, because there is no shortage of great therapists. It's almost like I needed to live there in order to get that experience. And sometimes I really do think that that's true. I really needed really good therapy for a long time.  

Debra: I mean, I was a mess when I think back and yeah, I got the intervention pretty early, but I you know, oh my goodness, oh my goodness.  

Robyn: Same, same. Well, I want to just be aware of our time, and I also know that our listeners, many of them, are going to be like, Well, where can I get this EMDR therapy? And so just, I actually don't even know. Do you all keep any sort of searchable database of folks who have trained in the model or no?  

Debra: You know, that's something that I need to have. What I do have- that's something I don't have yet, but what I do have is a list of therapists, including you certified our model on my website, DebraWesselmann.com and you'll see Robyn Gobbel up there who's no longer doing therapy, but that's okay. I still want you up there because still so many people can go now, who's this? Robyn Gobbel, and then they learn all about you, and they start listening to your podcast.  

Robyn: I mean, and if you're listening as a therapist, you know, I think part of why training, you know, with you Deb and with Stephanie and Kathy, part of it was so powerful, because I did my EMDR certification with y'all too. So I was certified in y'all's model, but y'all are also who did my actual EMDR certification with me. I'm sure part of why it was so impactful is that it was so early in my career, and it was like it just blew my mind up about possibilities. And it also it worked. Yeah, itThat makes work way more fun, way more fun. But for anyone listening like this, model just changed my life. It changed my life, and therefore it's changed so many. So who knows how many families lives have been changed, and it's even if I'm not practicing EMDR, again EMDR was like my introduction to memory processing theory, that really is underneath all of the work that we do. I think memory reconsolidation and all of that.  

Debra: And I would refer people to Emdria, where there's a membership directory, and you can find people that are certified in EMDR, yes, and that, and if they're certified, that's, that's a good indicator.  

Robyn: And then you some additional training in attachment, this relational model, because, you know, that is such a crucial piece of it. I mean, sure, we're doing some pretty cool stuff, you know, in the sessions, but you know, of course, so much of what therapy is is just that experience of being in an attuned, safe space and that relationship. You know, how that changes the brain. So you know, for everyone listening, if you're a therapist, listening, highly, highly, highly recommend. If you're searching for a tool in your toolbox, your book is coming out when?  

Debra: This month, on the 29th.  

Robyn: I think that might be when this episode is airing.  

Debra: Oh, cool!  

Robyn: It is, because that's a Tuesday, right? But are you training the model online?  

Debra: Yes. As a matter of fact, I have an online training in the model in November. And Christine Mark-Griffin is going to co-present with me. She created this EMDR workbook for kids. And she and I are creating an EMDR workbook that goes with this model that'll be out next year.  

Robyn: Oh, that's awesome, yeah, okay, I cannot wait to see that Yeah, and then for all the parents listening, you know, just just there, there's hope, there's hope. There are things that are helpful, and also some of our kids have been impacted so profoundly that it makes sense that it takes decades, yes, for things to shift. It makes sense and it's very devastating. You know, sometimes I see how people's lives have been so profoundly impacted by their earliest experience, and it is is devastating the impact, but also it makes sense, because what they experienced is just sometimes beyond comprehension. But even in those circumstances, there's hope, there's so much hope. And Deb, you've just changed-You've changed our field, and you've changed the lives of these families, and you've changed- you've changed my life. And I think about Marshall, and like all my other colleagues and friends, Suzette, you know, like all my friends and colleagues that I know, have also trained with you, and then all the lives that they've touched. And so just know, like you have such an impact on so many families.  

Debra: And I would say the very same about you.    

Robyn: Well, I think we need to stay in touch. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast today. I'll make sure all of this information is clickable and people can easily find you in all the wonderfulness that you are doing.  

Debra:  Oh, thank you. Robyn!  

Robyn: So y'all see what I mean? Deb is just delightful, but also brilliant and passionate and has changed the lives of so many kids and families, not just the ones that come to her office. But the ones who come to the offices of all of the probably, at this point, many 1000s of people that she has had the opportunity to train. If you're a therapist and you're considering what your next training would be, you know, of course, after you apply for the Baffling Behavior Training Institute's Immersion Program. If you're considering what else, what other modalities might be helpful for you and your work directly with kids, really go check out this modality, this intervention that Deb has developed for using EMDR with kids with attachment trauma and their families. It's amazing all of that information will be down in the show notes, and I will see you back here again next week on another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show!