Equine-Assisted Trauma Informed Psychotherapy {EP 51}

Robyn: I'm Robyn Gobbel, the founder and the host of this Parenting After Trauma podcast, where I take a science of being relationally socially and behaviorally human and translate that for parents of kids who have experienced trauma. I am a psychotherapist with over 15 years of experience working with kids who have experienced trauma and their families. I'm also a self diagnosed brain geek and relationship freak. I study the brain kinda obsessively and even taught the science of interpersonal neurobiology in a certificate program. I started this podcast on a whim with the intention to get you free, accessible support as fast as possible. So the podcast isn't fancy and I do very little editing, it's pretty common to hear cockadoodledoo in the background. If you love this episode, add Parenting After Trauma to your favorite podcast player and share with your friends and colleagues. After you do that, head over to my website and get the free ebook I wrote all about the brilliance of attachment. Readers of the ebook are saying that not only is the book beautifully laid out and easy to read, but it's offering a perspective on attachment theory that they've never heard before and it's shifting things for them. You can download that eBook for free at RobynGobbel.com/ebook. And while you're on my website, you are definitely going to want to check out my calendar of upcoming trainings for both parents and professionals at RobynGobbel.com/trainings. And just a tiny little teaser, but I working on creating something that I think you're gonna think is pretty amazing. A big, big, big training that will be available hopefully soon. 

Robyn: Today's episode with Michael Remole is sponsored by The Club, my virtual community of connection, co-regulation, and of course a little education for parents of kids impacted by trauma. Right now, The Club is wrapping up what has been a powerful three month exploration into attachment and they have truly blown me away. It's just so overwhelming to be a part of this amazing community. I mean the way they show up bravely for one another and themselves has exceeded what I thought was even possible. If you need to feel seen, to be gotten, and understood, we would love to have you. The Club opens for new members approximately every three months and we'll be opening our doors again in the fall, moving us into a new three month exploration of strengthening the foundation of the brain. So we'll be taking the ideas you've learned in this podcast series and then making them practical and applicable into your everyday life with your kids. Not to mention all of the support and the opportunities to really be seen and known by a community of people who just get it instantly and truly, that's invaluable. If you head over to RobynGobbel.com/TheClub, you will be able to add yourself to the waiting list and be the first to know when we open up. 

Robyn: One of the best things about hosting this podcast is having an excuse to connect with some of the most talented professionals in our field and then sharing their brilliance with you. I know parenting a kid with a history of trauma feels so lonely, and isolating, and you might feel overlooked, and like nobody gets it, or can help you. I hope that these guests interviews, including today with my friend Michael Remole reminds you that there are a lot of amazing professionals out in the world working so hard to change mental health treatment for you and your family. Let's hear what Michael has to say about equine assisted therapy as a way to help strengthen the foundation of the brain. 

Robyn: Michael, thanks for joining me here today, taking time out of your day, letting me share you and your brilliance with my audience. I'm so grateful.

Michael Remole: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to join you this morning.

Robyn: We're gonna have fun! 

Michael: Yes, I’m sure of it. 

Robyn: Yes. Well tell everybody like who you are and what you do.

Michael: Okay. Michael Remole, I'm from central Illinois, and I'm a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor. And my clinical road has led me to combine my passion for helping people and horses. So we provide trauma focused equine assisted psychotherapy. So essentially horses helping humans heal. And so our- I grew up showing horses and had a passion for- for that and wanted to be a horse trainer. And so I learned a lot about the horse brain, and how the brain operated, and how do we navigate the survival responses of a horse. And then as I got my master's and realized there is a lot of similarities here in how a horse brain operates, and how the traumatized brain operates. That's just where it just- I feel like things just took off from there. So I've been doing this work for I've been working with kids and families for about 20 years now, which is kind of crazy to say. [laughs]

Robyn: I know there's a part of this, like, how did we ever get to a stage in our lives where we could say 20 years about anything?

Michael: Right.

Robyn: Like how has this happened? Yes, I know a tiny bit about equine therapy. I'm actually really allergic to horses. So I don't do a lot of horse riding. But I do know just a little bit about equine therapy. And I have a really dear friend who is an excellent equine therapist. And then what also your connection to the neurosequential model. And Dr. Perry's work, which is so focused on helping to just organize a really strong foundation of the brain. So tell us about how those two pieces go together. Like how does Dr. Perry’s work overlap with working with horses and between therapy?

Michael: Yeah, so I found Dr. Perry's work actually through- while I was working at the Buckeye Ranch, and then found Natural Lifemanship, which is the the model of therapy we utilize, which is very heavily based in how the brain operates and the role of relationships. And so both human and horses, our brain structures are very similar. And that the bottom of that brainstem for survival, diencephalon where am I at in space, and how is space impacting me. And then limbic system, our relational part of our brain and the thinking part. And so for us, in order to help a horse navigate the parts of the brain, we have to help them engage the part of their brain that's online, just like we do a human. So knowing what we know about neuroscience, that if we're operating from bottom up, what speaks to the brainstem is rhythmic pattern, repetitive sensory input. So for us that- and that works for human and horse. So if that's I'm swinging a rope for the horse, if that is I'm tapping my legs or if I'm moving, you know, there's a lot of different things that just overlap there. So as we're then moving up into the brain, we're going to do different things for horse and human that are slightly different, but there's a lot of parallels. So I'm trying to think to kind of give your viewers a little bit more understanding. So when somebody's in- when horse is in survival, they're not able to access the thinking part of their brain. And it's very difficult- and so we have to get them to provide that, that felt sense of safety for them so that they can access that. And that comes from us being predictable. And providing that rhythmic input. Kind of a cool side note is, horses can sense our heartbeat because they are prey animal. Even a simple thing of if my heartbeat is sporadic and out of control, they're going to sense that and that's going to be dysregulating for them. So part of the power of this working and working with horses is if I'm going to try and engage and regulate that brainstem, I've got to work on myself and regulate myself. So that's where this- the beauty of this work comes. The other part of this, if you looked in heart math is that our hearts are going to kind of go in sync with the horses so we're doing this co-regulation thing, which is such a beautiful piece. So we're trying to engage the horse's brainstem, and then limbic system, or sorry- the diencephalon, where they're at in space, how's their body moving? Is, you know, we're gonna get a lot of signs and signals of is this horse online? Are they running circles around me or are they walking? Are their ears back? Are they trying to bite me? You know, those are the signs that are saying, hey, we've got some dysregulation here. But then horses want to be in connection with other horses or with us. So we're able to provide that safety and that sense of connection for the horse, to where we can do attachment where we're working on relationships close to each other, and detachment where we work on relationships with distance. And so that is part of the work, because who likes to work on long distance relationships? You know, nobody says you know what I love, let's- let's separate and you go over there, we're going to date for six months far apart. That doesn't work. But detachment is really important. You think about your kid going off to school, they've got to have that felt sense of connection to you that even though we're not sharing the same space, we're still connected. So it takes a lot of work on the human to provide that regulated state during detachment as well as the horse because they're like, whoa, I don't like to be by myself, I'm a herd animal. So we can help them build that sense of, you know, being connected even when we're detached. And then the thinking part, that, you know, we're able to access that, and so can my horse navigate the things that we want to do? And we're talking about the horse here, but as you can tell, so much of what has to happen for the human in order for the horse to be able to do those things. And vice versa.

Robyn: Yeah, yes. [overlapping conversation] Okay. Yeah. So here's what I'm hearing, tell me if I'm hearing this correctly, because I really, I know just a teeny tiny bit about horses. So I'm hearing you say that even if we're not talking about therapy, but just being with horses-

Michael: Yes.

Robyn: -as a- as a horse trainer, or just even a recreational being with horses for fun that there's this extremely important piece of the human having tons of self awareness and knowing, like kind of what's happening in their bodies as they're approaching the horse. And it sounds like  some responsibility to have ownership over that, right? Like before I- because this is an enormous animal who could have hurt me, before I get too close to them or have too many expectations for them, the first thing I had to do is kind of pause and like, check in with myself. And then there's this other component I'm hearing you say, which is that that same human’s responsibility after having so much attunement to themselves, is now I have to get really clear about all these horse’s nonverbal cues, and get really honest about what do they mean? 

Michael: Yes.

Robyn: Well, that does sound very familiar.

Michael: Right? Right. And it's so interesting with the horses, and where a lot of really powerful work comes into play, is being able to start to do the internal work. You know, what am I sensing, feeling, what's going on internally for me, versus what I'm showing on the outside? Because the moment that those things don't align for me, the horse assumes that I'm a predator now. You know, you think about a mountain lion sneaking up on a horse to eat it, they're not going to be, you know, inside they're gonna say this a good meal, but outside, they're just like, yeah, I'm nice and calm. And so that- the horse's survival sense kicks into planes that something's off. You are not trustworthy, you are a predator. And so for us as humans when internal doesn't match external- 

Robyn: Right? 

Michael: -they're like, whoa, mountain lion here. And so then that's where we get to do a lot of the really powerful work. Horses don't mind it when you say, hey, I'm scared of you right now because they're being ruined. It's when I'm terrified and going, oh, I got this, give me the rope. I'm good, you know? So that's where we can do a lot of really cool work.

Robyn: Okay, okay, let's pause again because you started to just kind of blow my mind. Because I talk a ton about the insides and outsides matching. There's, I think, probably because of maybe my own history, there's something about that that's always felt really obvious. Like when the insides and the outsides don't match, that is like a danger, danger cue to the person that you're with. And then I learned more about like, neuroception, and polyvagal, and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, okay, I get now I understand the science behind why, even the idea of like, fake it till you make it, you know, like, sometimes I'll hear that advice given to parents, like, just pretend you're calm, even if you're not calm. And so I start okay, like, okay, I understand the science of congruence, which felt instinctual to me. Now I get it, it makes more sense. I've never heard it explained the way you just did. Where this idea of the incongruence sends, not only is it like, danger, danger signal, it's like you’re a predator signal. Which makes- but like- it's like, well duh, that makes perfect sense. But it also just clicked that in- in a way that it hasn't before. And I'm going to teach that from now on too!

Michael: Well and when you think about with kids and confront them about something, and they really are fired up internally. And yet, they're trying to act like everything's, you know, they're dysregulated. But they're “I’m fine, everything's okay”. They're gonna pick up on that and they're gonna sense that incongruency. And so then their reaction is going to be different because they're operating from a place of you are a threat to me right now. And I don't know how much I can trust you. Because there's two different things that I'm- I'm feeling you. One thing from you, and I'm seeing a different thing. And so that makes- makes a world of difference in how we're going to interact with our kids.

Robyn: Right. Well, it also shakes up the predictability piece, right? That I know Perry talks- Dr. Perry talks about so much is like, if you're if your insides and your outsides don't match, I really have no idea what's about to happen. Next thing could kind of go either way.

Michael: Yeah, and the part that, you know, with that, we're sensing what's going on for the other person. So that's brains- that’s survival stuff. So not cognitively aware of, like, oh, this person feels off, you know, like, and so I'm going to respond from that- that the cues that are coming in are saying danger, danger, danger. So when that's happening, I'm not listening to you, I'm not hearing anything. Or if I am hearing you, I'm not accurately interpreting it, because I'm from- I'm operating in a place of survival. And so I think that is really important for us. And that's when we have parents come out and do parenting sessions, you know, with our horses, we see a lot of this come out where it's like, you're- you shouldn't be calm. You just did 1200 [overlapping conversation].

Robyn: Right? 

Michael: You should be a little bit bothered by this. But when you're saying you're calm, and this horse is calling you out on your stuff, yeah, this, you know, and we then are able to do some of that really powerful work of how would you then handle this with your child? How do you handle this with your co-workers or your spouse? You know, and so it's- it's really cool to see that because we don't have- most of us don't have pathways about relationships with horses. 

Robyn: Okay. 

Michael: So the horse giving that feedback to me, I'm able to receive it a little bit better, because there's no, you know, I don't have any associations there. Versus you told me that you gave me that feedback of like, something seems off here. Oh, Robyn just doesn't like me. [overlapping conversation]

Robyn: Yes, yes. 

Michael: So that's why this work, I think, is so powerful, in that we're able to operate really from a- we don't have a lot of pathways built around those connections, and so I'm able to receive it. And then I can alter and change my behaviors and begin to really develop healthy pathways about this relationship that then, as we say, transferred to other arenas of my life, and helped me out there. And so that's why I love this work. It's so cool.

Robyn: Yes. So when I have- often had kids going to equine therapy adjunctly, because it's been so clear, like, what a really powerful intervention is. And one of the things I've always thought too, is that there's something about you kind of just explained why the relationship with a horse that does a loss of our ego, right? Our- well, I would say quote, unquote, ego like from psychological terms ego, right? Like, I'm just not triggered just often. Like I'm not taking personally, how the horse is responding. It's just- it just is what it is. It's what's happening. It's like this clean catch of formation. And since my ego does not involved, you know, not feeling triggered, and I don't mean that-. So often we say ego and it's, it's using this pejorative way, I don't mean it that way at all. It's just- it's just a thing, right that when that's not happening, that part’s not activated, then we're just like kind of cleanly working with the data of what's happening here, between the two of us, things work so much better, so much better.

Michael: Because I'm in a place to receive that differently. And I don't put my own twist on it, you know, based off of previous experiences. And so that is like, like you said, cleanly integrated. And it's like installed, it's fantastic. 

Robyn: Yeah, I hadn't ever thought about it in that way that you just said, it's like- like, especially someone like me, like I have very, very little experience with horses. So you're right, the lack of previous experiences means that it's- it's brand new. I don't have all these pre-existing beliefs about this horse, or horses in general, or what's going to happen next. 

Michael: Yeah. And then the cool part is- is when we, you know, we have the relationship stuff that we do on the ground. But you and I both know, sometimes there are individuals who need so much more bottom up regulation, that brainstem diencephalon areas really disorganized, that accessing the limbic system is really difficult, because they go offline so quickly that we're able to provide that passive rhythm of the horse. You know, we're writing and think about bilateral movement, we're moving back and forth. And we're able to regulate the brainstem and provide that passive rhythm and then diencephalon, where am I at in space, and how a space impacted me. I've got this massive 1200 pound animal that's moving my body and that we're working together. And that then now I'm in this place of, we're connected to each other physically. So now we can start to work on the emotional connection. And so we're working through the, you know, bottom up regulation, and if we get to that limbic system, and you've worked with those kids that override their limbic system, and they go to the neocortex. We keep those kiddos there, and keep them from going back to, you know, the high level thinking, and let them feel what is this connection like with this horse, and that's where there's a lot of really good work. And so then we'll let them tap into the neocortex through a simple thing of spelling the horse's name or, you know, something simple like that. And then we come back down. And so we're able to then build those pathways that say, hey, we can engage all parts of our brain and- and build a connection and relationship to where this is safe and healthy. And it just- it's incredible to watch.

Robyn: Yeah, it would be fun if people can see you right now, because you are like, just so lit up about this, like, just genuinely, like, this is so cool. 

Michael: Even if we get a kid that calls in a crisis. And I will rock with them on the phone, going back and forth, because I know I'm regulating my body. And it seems a little silly, but we know the power of regulation, and rhythm, and predictability. And so that job- that's part of my job here is to provide that. And so I might be out in public and have to step away from a crisis call. And you know, when my friends, why are you swaying back and forth, because I needed to help regulate myself, and I'm working on my breathing because even through that crisis call that kiddo or that parent can hear me and I can provide that rhythm that way. So, and in session, we do the same thing, because the beauty of this, horses don't know who the client is. So then, as a therapist, I have to do my own work, I got to come into that session very well prepared, and doing my own stuff and being able to say, hey, right now I'm frustrated, kiddo. Can you help me with this today? And then there's some really cool co-regulation pieces that take place there. I had a kid- I got a rough email. He's 7 years old, got a rough email right before session, and I was trying to shake it. And I just couldn't. And so I said to him, bud, I want you to know, I'm just, I'm struggling. And he put his hands up because he does this [audible deep breath]. And just as a way to help me, you tell me when I'm frustrated, this what you do. He did it for me. And I just thought it was so, so cool. So-.

Robyn: I think what I found is so inspiring and maybe even just fascinating is like, there's just no way around the fact that the horse is enormous. And if we don't do these things that we need to do to stay regulated, to stay mindful, to work on congruence, this actual danger, right? Like there's this level of motivation to even just practice exactly what you just said this authenticity of I'm feeling what, you know, it's bringing me back to sessions I've had, not even just authenticity in the session because of what's unfolding in the session, but maybe something that happened right before. And, you know, knowing how important it is like when I first come into contact with somebody who, for whatever reason, but thinking especially about the therapy room, when we first are meeting each other, like our energies are first meeting, or we're sitting down together, I'm authentic about, like, I want you to know that I'm okay. And I'm- I'm so happy to be with you today. But the hour I had right before you, like, caused some intense dysregulation, or I just got off the phone with something that was extremely dysregulating and you probably gonna feel it in my body. And I want you to know, it's not about you, because that's what we do, right? We interpret like danger danger. This is about me. Yeah. So I do- I also want to pause, I'm remembering that I did a podcast interview back in May. I have no idea what number it was because I don't really keep track like that, but with Lisa Dion. And so people who are listening and want to hear more about like, what we're talking about this like authenticity, insides and outsides matching from a parenting perspective, head back and find that episode, y'all. Lisa Dion, it was called something about regulation doesn't equal calm or regulated doesn't mean calm or- or something like that. It was back in May, y'all, I have no idea whatever it was, but you can find it. And we talked exactly about like Michael and I are talking about now, which I think is just this crucial element of relationship and it's hard. It is hard to show up that authentically in relationship unless you're facing a 1200 pound animal who could step on you and hurt you. You've got to practice it! 

Michael: Right? And, and the beauty of it is with the horses when we do get it right, they provide really quick feedback for us. Because they're like, oh, okay, you're not, you know, you're not a threat, you're not the predator like I thought. And so we need that quick feedback. Whereas you might- you might provide that to me, you know, like I'm regulated and you've given me that feedback, but it takes me a little longer just to connect it. Where the horse it's pretty fast. Or it's or-, you know, very obvious that it's not working. And so that's the part, too, that we get to- to see and receive that feedback much faster than we would with a human being. 

Robyn: Yes, this is so just fantastic for me to, personally, to be connecting these dots so much more, you know, I can Por- Dr. Porges’ work with polyvagal theory he has foundation of that is therapist ca- well, his foundation of how this applies clinically, is the very first step in the process is always therapist attunements to self. Like we're not capable of attuning to anyone else before we're attuned to self. And the same is true of course, a parent or any relational experience for me to attend to you have to first attune to myself, and it's easy to try to skip over that part. Nevermind, oh, too much self thing. I'm just going to focus on you. But man in the situations you're describing to you with the client and being with a horse, it's like, well, sorry, you don't get to skip that part.

Michael: Exactly. Well, we got some some professionals that have come to work for us that have talked about how difficult it's been because they realized they still had more work to do. You know? And I think the other part that I love about this work is the principles of pressure of making a request with the horse, we want to start with the least amount of pressure and work our way up, you know, as needed. If the horse ignores us, or resists us, or cooperates, it's going to change how we use that pressure. And I think for parenting, it just it applies and relationships in general and applies so much and thinking- I didn't realize how my energy and my intensity can transfer to other people, you know, you come into a session and you're like, boom, boom, boom, gotta keep, you know, we got to go. They’re feeling that- that energy and that pressure and like you said, we assume it's about us, it might have been about somebody else. So we have to do that work of regulating, and then starting with the least amount of pressure, and gradually working our way up. We talked about how a horse can ignore us. And if they ignore us, we want to gradually increase that pressure. Think about your 15 year old son, and you asked him to do the dishes, you don't go do the dishes, and then yelling and screaming, do the dishes. Although sometimes we feel like we should do that. Right? It's- you're gonna gradually increase the pressure. And when he does the dishes, you release that pressure. “Thank you so much, I appreciate that”. And I think we always encourage parents, the moment that they cooperate with us, after they've ignored us, and we've, you know, been working or even resisted us, the temptation that we have to fight is to say, “now, wouldn’t this have been easier to do earlier”? 

Robyn: [laughs] Of course!

Michael: Because and that's what's going through our mind, but we have to bite your tongue. Because when we think about stress, and I'm applying that pressure for you to do the dishes, and you got to release it, I get that- that feel good dopamine, ah, this is right. But the moment you say, wouldn't that have been easier to do 10 minutes ago, boom, cortisol, stress chemicals, and now that doesn't feel good. Same things happening with the horse, when I ask the horse, like I'm breaking a horse out to ride for the first time, and I put something on them, and it takes them a while to relax with it. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Michael: And then I- I get really aggressive about it again, real fast, and don't give them that chance to feel good, then it takes them longer to recognize and to regulate, this isn't a bad thing. And so I think that's what happens a lot for parents with responding to ignoring or resisting. We have to keep that under control, and not say, wouldn't this have been easier. So, and with resistance, the other part of this work because horses like to resist us. And what we say with resistance, is that they're thinking for a way to get this pressure to go away. Okay? So as they're going through that, we keep the pressure the same. So I'm asking you to put this saddle pad on you, and you're gonna walk away from me, but I can tell you're still looking at me. I'm gonna keep that pressure, and I'm gonna follow you with it. Okay? So if your kiddo is not doing the dishes, and he's wanting to throw a fit, and lay on the floor and thrash around. Okay, when you're done with that, the dishes are still there, kind of, you know? But you hold that space, and have to, that's where it comes back to that internal work of ourselves, of being regulated and being almost that- that- that- I'm drawing a blank, the metronome that's any beat for them, so that they can then get back in alignment with you and be like, okay, we can do this. And then it's- we release the pressure once they go to do the dishes. And, you know, and that's the really critical work that we see here with kids, and with families, of how do we then utilize our pressure appropriately? Because we often misuse, we use too much pressure, or we use none at all. And we let other people run all over us. So that's the other part of this- this work that is so fascinating to me.

Robyn: Yeah, that was a neat example. Because absolutely, that sometimes when our kids are- have expressed distress in them, however, the way they do it, however big or small they do it, is- there is almost a sense where we feel like our choices are to like just relinquish and be like nevermind, you don't have to do it. Or, like you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to instead of finding this sort of space in between, which is like I can be with you in your protest, and be regulated with you and allow you to have your protest because you get to protest. Like your feelings are valid, and your feelings of protest are valid. I’ll totally be with you in that. And you still have to do it. Now, there are some, of course, nuances that sometimes we do as parents, and I guess I would assume the same is true when you're working with a horse. Sometimes there is a moment to have some self reflection to be like, “oh, I made a request that wasn't reasonable, given the stage of our relationship, given this child's capacity”. And I would assume that's true in a horse too. We do have to be like oh, okay, so I am actually going to relinquish the whole dishes requests because I thought it was a reasonably request, now I'm seeing it actually wasn't.

Michael: Right. And the part that we have to think about too is breaking out a horse. If today you didn't want me to put this saddle on you, you know, tomorrow- I might take a break for the day because you- this is causing more stress for both of us and we get to co-regulate. So to me putting that aside and saying, let's just find a place to reg-, you know, of calm, to regulate, and we'll revisit this tomorrow. And that pressure that request is still is there. I would like for you to have this saddle on that, you know, but sometimes you have to look at the timeline. Yes, this timeline, is this my agenda and what is fair and reasonable for the horse that also transfers to our kids and our, you know, significant other any relationship. Is this fair right now? 

Robyn: Yeah. So we've done a beautiful job- you've done a beautiful job translating, like the relational pieces from like the horse to real- to the real world, because there's no horses in the kitchen when we're doing the dishes. Let's also talk about translating the implicit like rhythm that's happening on the horse that is providing this like immediate experience of co-regulation, but again, no horses in the kitchen. So when we think about that, that piece, specifically, the rhythmic, repetitive experience of being on a horse, how can parents take those sorts of ideas and translate that to real life?

Michael: Yeah, the first thing I would say is we think about the heartbeat of the horse, because as we approach, that heartbeat is helping our body regulate, and their heartbeat is much slower than so we don't ever want to match it. But it's going to bring our heartbeat down to a steadier beat. And for us as parents, that is the thing that I would say, first off. Your heartbeat, and how do we control our heartbeat is through our breathing. So by regulating our breath, and taking care of that, that is where we're able to start to provide that very basic, passive rhythm. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Michael: And when I think of that, think of passive rhythm, I think of it's when those moments when sometimes I can get a kid to say, “hey, let's go for a walk”. They're able to provide that active bilateral stimulation and rhythm. Sometimes they're in a place where they- they refuse to do that. And parents say, well, what do I do? This is where it's really critical for you to do that work with your body to regulate so that you can be that- that heartbeat, and that rhythm for the individual because their body is feeling that. The other thing that swaying back and forth can be a simple thing. The tapping your legs, you know, like thinking about walking back and forth. And they said, on the crisis calls, I've done this, where you're, you're just thinking about that rhythm. And also do you hear my- the rhythm of my voice? It’s- it’s becoming very rhythmic and predictable. Those are simple things that are engaging the brainstem to help regulate it, and also help regulate me. Sometimes it's not about the kiddo, it's- it's, I'm just trying to get my body in check, because I can't, I can't regulate you if I'm out of sorts and dysregulated. So that is the part. So we talk about the heartbeat, the breathing. And we also talk about movement, like creating a space away from the kiddo to where I can step away and do my own work. So sometimes the parents need that, I'm gonna go walk down to the mailbox, and I'm gonna come back and we're going to revisit this, because they need- they are so dysregulated, there's nothing positive that's going to come out of that situation. So taking that minute to walk. Rocking chairs, if a kiddo is willing, if this is when we're going to move into those interventions and those injections, where a kiddo was willing to cooperate, and is able, rocking chairs are great. And even just going for a walk. We also talked about sitting on an exercise ball, because you can- you can- you can create that back and forth, that movement that's similar to the horse. And then we've had some people that have used, and this is for our itty bitty kiddos that had one of those horses on the springs.

Robyn: Oh, sure!

Michael: And they've done that as well. So, and a glider. I would say a glider is actually probably I would suggest with families to do that before a rocking chair because a glider is a whole lot more challenging to dysregulate. It keeps that rhythm, but if you can get a rocking chair really going so a glider for a kiddo it's a lot harder and oftentimes because it keeps you in rhythm, they’ll regulate a little faster. That's why- that's why a lot of infant, you know, in a nursery they have gliders now versus rocking chairs. Because it just- it helps provide that rhythm you just get it started and it will keep it going forward. 

Robyn: That makes sense. I had never thought about gliders versus rocking chairs exactly in that way before but that kind of built in mechanism, like almost like a safety mechanism, that prevents like going over the edge, that makes a lot of sense. 

Michael: Yeah. Because- and you can get a rocking chair. I mean, the rocking chairs can work, but for a kiddo that really likes to-, you know, they adults even can really get a rocking chair going and providing the regulated rhythm. So that's why we lean towards that.

Robyn: Yeah. I like that. I love how you really distinguish between passive and active because I do think- I teach when- when I teach therapists and parents about rhythmic, and repetitive, and being intentional about these rhythmic, repetitive experiences. I- my- my go to is like movement based kind of stuff, and gross motor base kind of stuff, because that's my love. That's my passion. And probably, it's because that's what regulates me when it really all the way comes down to it, right? And that- that there's something that feels really helpful about having such an active idea or an active thing to do. Let's toss this ball back and forth. Right? And that's- that's all well and good. And just like you said, sometimes kids are not willing participants, let's say that. Cooperative, willing participants and that there is still so much that can be done when we remember how powerful our role is, and how our energy is in this passive regulation in this passive, getting- coming into contact with our own rhythm, right, and our own breathing. And like you said, like the way that we start swaying back and forth. And in my office, I sit- actually, in my therapy office, I sit in the chair that I'm in right now, it came to me- came with me to this office where my therapy office is very deliberately chosen, because I think, you know, I can go rock back and forth like I am right now. I can rock backwards and forwards. I can- like there's these ways of just like you said-, like, first of all, it's for me, because sometimes being a therapist is stressful.

Michael: Right! 

Robyn: And I've got this way, like this instant built in regulation that's totally socially appropriate, doesn't send off these big red flags of like, what's that lady doing? Like, oh, no, I'm just like, rocking back and forth in my chair, and I can get it going and my foot on the ground. So first, it's for me, but then it's also communicating, like in the energy field between us and so often then that clients catching that, we're getting to catch some of that rhythm. 

Michael: And, and I think it normalizes the need to engage our body in our rhythm, in our regulation. Because we think of I got a regular you know, in school, oftentimes, they gotta sit still.

Robyn: Yes.

Michael: You know, they don't quite know, did model for them. I'm just taking care of me right now. You know, it's just, it's just me. And I think kids feel like, oh, because one of the big push backs that I hear from kids is you just want me to do weird things. Yes, you know, and I, well, maybe, but these are weird things that I do, too, because it helps my body regulate. And so I think normalizing that even as a grown adult, I need these things. And it helps me, and then they start to say, oh, okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna try that.

Robyn: And I'm always asking, I'm sure you are too, I'm always asking parents to reflect on the things that they do, that are regulating. And like, you know, when he said take out, you know, like walk to the mailbox- it's like the walk to the mailbox has become like the highlight of my day in COVID. [laughs] We have kind of a long driveway, it forces me to get outside, our driveway is gorgeous, and especially this summer, you know, when it's not winter. And like that's this part of my day, that is you know, maybe I didn't say like, “ooh, a regulation break for me is a walk to the mailbox”, but implicitly, I've added into my day, this rhythmic, you know, experience of going all the way down and all the way back. And we all have, I've so many of those, right? That are just baked into my day. And for adults to normalize that like we're not asking you anything weird or unusual or like coddle our kids, we all do these things. Let's help our kids find what they need, so that they can get through the day the same way that we try to. [laughs]

Michael: Exactly when I'm thinking about the walk to the driveway, you know, with- we often forget about the fact that good can dysregulate us as well. And so kid comes home from a very exciting visit or you know, we work with a lot of kids in foster care. And so these came from a visit, and they're all up and we think they should be really great. Why did they just have this major meltdown? Good can be dysregulated, too. And so implementing those things, and then with COVID, you know, with a lot of us having to be at home at different times, getting those things where work shuts down, and we go into family modes, those are small little interventions that you can do of like, I'm- I turned my computer off, I walked in the mailbox, work is done. And now I'm coming home, like I would have if I had that 10, you know, 15, 40 minute drive. Those are small, little things. But I also think the intentionality behind us of thinking about when I come home from work that I'm- I'm bringing in stuff if I don't take care of it. And so then our kids are picking up on that and feeding off of that. And so how do I regulate myself so that I come home when I'm ready to be me in a regulated state? Because what I'm giving off is going to set the tone for the kiddo because they're going to think automatically, it's them. And I might be really stuck on an email that I didn't get addressed at the office. So those are pieces, and that's where we also talked about this with the horses, coming back to them. When you go out to the barn and you go, I'm going to ride and I'm very, you know, my brain is still in that work mode of that email, that horse is going to go back to the fact that you're a predator. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Michael: And so our kiddos when you come home from work, and you're still at work, their bodies are sending signals to us that you're a predator right now. And so I'm not super excited to cooperate with a predator. 

Robyn: Right? 

Michael: You know, and so we wonder why we have a lot of resistance, or met with a lot of resistance. So that's a huge part of that of that work, where we say find those regulation pieces, so that you can be present, and attuned, and ready, so that your kid doesn't think that you're a predator.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, there's something about that statement that has, it's like- it's so provocative. But also, I don't know, I have to deconstruct why later, but that it's just hitting me in like, such a perfect way where I can really imagine using this in my real life, like in my personal life. Like I don't want my spouse, I don't want my son to experience me as a predator. And there's something about that, that's like, almost so absurd yet, not. That it's- it's resonating for me really in this moment. So like, “okay, if I don't want to come across as a predator”, like there's a party, it's like picturing like a Tyrannosaurus Rex or something, maybe that's why it feels so absurd. Like, I don't want to be like, I don't want to be a predator. So let's- that doesn't mean I have to be perfect. That doesn't mean I have to even be like, calm or happy. It means I have to be congruent. So again, y'all to go back to you and check the podcast interview I did with Lisa Dion, she talks so much more about- so much about being in congruence. And I also understand that and then we'll- we'll wrap up, and we'll find another time to talk more about this. I know people are like more Michael, more Michael! But I have a blog post about why good times suddenly go bad. And you just kind of spoke on that, like how good- how good things can get dysregulating. So I'll bet there was a couple people listening and we're like, oh, my gosh, say more about that. And we don't have time to say more about that right now. But, y'all, I will put in the show notes like a link to that blog article if that caught your attention and you want to go read a little bit more about that. 

Robyn: Well, this was so fun- everything was fun. The talking we did beforehand. And it was fun to watch you, because I've known you in a different way then equine therapist Michael, I've known you as conference director Michael. And that's been a fun way to get to know you. I've really enjoyed that. But to watch you shift into the “I love my work. And I love these kids. And I love these horses” way to like to watch your eyes light up and like you just shift into like, a little bit different person, as you talked about your work has been just really fun for me to see. So thank you for bringing that part of yourself here with me now and also to everybody that gets to listen.

Michael: Thank you so much. It's- it is a joy to share this and we could talk for hours. I appreciate all the work. And I love learning from you. And so it's been a joy to get to- to just chat and to share life together. So thank you.

Robyn: It has been! Till next time. Thanks, Michael.

Michael: Thank you so much.

Robyn: Michael is pretty cool, right? I'm pretty sure he's hinted at the fact that I have an open invitation at his ranch and my family and I totally plan to take him up on that. Soon. Head over to Gateway Family Services website to see if your family could benefit from their services, and then definitely sign up to get notifications about the next Rising Tide conference. The conference was seriously, truly the highlight of my summer. Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. I’m really grateful for you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your commitment to kids and families and to making the world a better place by embodying the science of relationships, I'll see you next week.