Oppositional And Defiant Behavior- Part 2 {EP 157}

Robyn: So last week, we talked about the neurobiology of oppositional behavior. And if you're new here, you may be just learning that I am a little obsessive about understanding the neurobiology, the why behind behavior. It's for a whole host of reasons that I find this so important. But one is that it actually does become a technique or strategy, understanding the why shifts us, shifts how we see behavior. And when we really look at relational neuroscience and how the brain changes and things like the resonance circuitry and mirror neurons, we start to see how actually changing how we see people is a strategy, it changes people. So understanding the theory, I'm a huge proponent of, and I'm a huge proponent of continuing to circle back through the theory to really, like solidify those neural pathways. So that was episode one. Now here today in episode two, we're going to talk about some strategies for helping kids who have a lot of oppositional behaviors and who seem really stuck in protection mode, how can we help them shift more into connection mode because once we're in connection mode, those oppositional behaviors will drift away. So that's what we're going to talk about today. And then next week, I'm going to do kind of a special episode, for those of you parenting kids who have attachment trauma in their history, because that does add a whole new layer to a nervous system that's in protection mode. Because one of the primary offerings that helps invite kids from protection mode into connection mode isn't as easily utilized by caregivers, or educators or grown-ups, who are in relationship with kids who have attachment trauma and their history, because for those kids connection doesn't necessarily equal safe, connection doesn't necessarily equal co-regulation like it does for kids who don't have attachment trauma in their history. So I'm just aware of the fact that that, of course, adds a whole new layer to connecting with, parenting kids who have significant oppositional behaviors and spend a lot of time in protection mode. So we're going to talk about that very specifically next week in part three. 

Robyn: So today's episode, you should leave with some pretty practical strategies that you can attempt to see if those are offerings of safety that could be received by your child. But before we get to those strategies, I want to have a really, really quick, I don't know, maybe kind of like a little disclaimer, I think we're really missing something if we talk about and do an entire series on oppositionality and oppositional behavior without kind of bringing into this conversation a look at– an examination of some bigger social values and pause to ask ourselves, or to invite some curiosity from ourselves around some conversations that we probably don't spend a lot of time thinking about, especially those of you who are like deep, deep, deep in the trenches, navigating really intense kid behaviors, you're just thinking about moment to moment survival, you're not thinking about some of these, kind of bigger, broader social conversations that we could be curious about. So I want to touch on it for just the briefest of moments. And think about how when we use words like oppositionality, how implicit in describing somebody else's behavior as oppositional– implicit in that is an idea of a power hierarchy, that there are some ideas that we commonly hold as a culture, about who holds the power, who doesn't hold the power, and how people who don't hold the power– how they then are expected to behave. And I think that we– I don't have an answer to those things I just think these are things we can hold, really curious, really keeping that curiosity place of our mind, those of us that have enough Owl brain on board that we can think about those things. When did we culturally decide that based on age is how we determine a power hierarchy? Why do adults implicitly have power over and children implicitly have power under? Now, I'm not talking about things that require adult brains to think about, right? Safety, anticipating the future, I mean, there are things that the adult brain developmentally is capable of, that kids brains developmentally aren't capable of, for example, here's a really silly example, teeth brushing, right? Like little kids are only concerned about basically what's happening in the immediate here. And now, or the very, very, very short-term future. This is 100%, due to how their brain works. And it's how their brain is supposed to work, their brain simply isn't developed enough for them to care about things that are gonna happen in the future, like cavities or oral health, right? 

Robyn: So as adults, we can think about those things. And we also understand the importance of establishing these types of habits and behaviors really young. And so we can use our connection and relationship with our kids to cultivate an experience of safety around this new and unusual sensory experience of brushing your teeth, so that their nervous system kind of opens up into cooperation about teeth brushing, and when they don't, we have some choices to make, right? Like, how much do we use our power as adults to insist that this thing that this child doesn't like brushing their teeth happens? And there are a lot of things we have to take into consideration there. And my point in this example, is that when I say that it's important for us to really examine these power over power under hierarchies when thinking about oppositionality, I am not talking about these kinds of experiences that really do require an adult brain to make some decisions, right? Like, if we let kids only be the ones who are only making these decisions, they're highly unlikely to brush their teeth, right? And so we use the developmental capacity of our brain to see into the future. And then we use the developmental capacity of our brain to search for ways that we can invite our kids into cooperation and doing something they don't really want to do. And if they are exceptionally opposed to doing this thing, then we can use our advanced adult brain to brainstorm why, like what's happening? What's the sensory experience, what's the intensity of the experience with teeth brushing, that is leading to this oppositionality? And so I'm hoping in this example, it's maybe not super clear, but I'm hoping in this example, what you're seeing here is that there is still a way, even in these decisions, where adults can see you to the future, and therefore we know things that are important to have to happen now. We can still use our thinking brain to invite connection and cooperation, and still stay in a power with experience with our kids without relying on like, power over power dynamics.

Robyn:  So the whole reason I went off on that little tangent is just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we relinquish our responsibilities and decisions to our kids and they're immature, you know, still developing brain that would actually, in many circumstances decrease some felt safety. What I am suggesting is that for almost all of us, certainly for me, too, there is space for us to consider how our values around the parent-child relationship and just the power dynamics involved, how those implicit ideas are impacting how we view oppositional behavior. Now, again, I don't have an answer to that. I am not a philosophical, whatever, I'm not a philosopher. But I do enjoy the thought experiments. And so if you have a child whose level of oppositionality is causing, like great distress in your family, it's leading to extremely dangerous behaviors or extreme stress in your family due to the level of compositionality you don't have the bandwidth to like wack philosophical on some of these things. So I'm not asking you to do that. But there are probably some folks listening who do have the bandwidth to contemplate some of these ideas. I'm a real big believer, and those of us that have the bandwidth have the window of tolerance, that we use the privilege of that window of tolerance, to consider some of these ideas that some other folks don't have the bandwidth for. 

Robyn: Okay, as usual, I talked about that longer than I anticipated. I understand I have a proclivity to use lots of words. And I actually am working on that. Working to be a little more succinct. And I'm also balancing that with the kind of just is who I am. And trying to find, you know, a space where both– where both can be true! 

Robyn: Okay, so now let's actually talk about strategies, okay? Strategies of felt safety. Strategies that are intended to invite somebody else's nervous system into connection mode from protection mode. That's what we're talking about here. If we want to have strategies to reduce oppositionality, how do we invite their nervous system from protection mode into connection mode? We have to remember that felt safety offerings are exactly that, offerings. We cannot yank somebody into safety. And if we even kind of frame it that way, I think it will, again, I kind of chuckle a little and I think it becomes really obvious that that's true. I cannot yank somebody into felt safety. And when I approach somebody with that kind of energy like I'm trying to get you to do something different, or to be something different, generally speaking, that kind of energy comes from us being in protection mode. And as we'll talk about later in this episode, we, the grown-ups, really do need to try to be in connection mode if we're going to offer felt safety. So we have to remember these are offerings. There are a lot of reasons why somebody in production mode can't receive those offerings, a lot of different kinds of reasons. And my core theory is that it's my obligation to trust them. That if their nervous system says it's not safe for me to feel safe, I trust that in that moment, their system is doing exactly what it believes it needs to do in order to be okay. And it is that trust, actually, that is another offering of safety. And so over time, it's very possible that those offerings of safety will add up and add up and add up and that we can kind of fill that proverbial bucket of safety. I can't promise that, I don't really want to approach that as my like, only objective. My objective isn't exactly to change the other person but my objective is to offer up an authentic experience for them that could allow their nervous system to experience rest, which is what it means to shift back into connection mode. 

Robyn: So felt safety comes from three places. I've talked about this a lot on the podcast before there are earlier episodes on the difference between connection and protection or earlier episodes on field safety. And of course, last week's episode, we addressed some of the neurobiology of oppositionality. And then, of course, in the book, Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, the science of safety is the foundation of the book. There's a whole chapter on the science of safety, but the entire book is talking about, you know, connection mode versus protection mode and how to grow connection mode and invite kids from protection mode into connection mode. Essentially, that's what the book is about. So we know that felt safety comes from three places and we know this based on, you know, decades and decades of decades of psychological and child development research. And then we also can lean into Dr. Porges’s theory of ‘Neuroception’ when thinking about felt safety and how cues of safety are being gathered from three places; from the child’s inner world, from their environment, and then from the relational experience that they're in. And Deb Dana, who is a clinician known for kind of translating polyvagal theory into clinical practice, Deb Dana kind of summarizes that the cues are taken from inside, outside and between, in order– that's where the cues are taken from when folks are kind of neurocieving felt safety, okay? Inside, outside, between. Inside their inner world, outside their environment, between the relationship. 

Robyn: Let's talk first about inside, the easy things to talk about are things like, is your child hungry? Are they thirsty? Are they tired? Do they need to go to the bathroom? Do they need to move their bodies, okay? We really underestimate kids' needs to move. Especially our kids who struggle more from like shifting from rest to movement. You know, our kids who struggle to move, to do anything, to get off the couch, to get out of bed, right? We then can kind of easily underestimate their need for movement, because it feels like they're telling us the opposite, that they don't need to move. Some people just have a harder time transitioning from one state to the next, right? And some people have a harder time transitioning from, you know, not moving to moving, right? And we're actually we're going to talk again about how an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. Look at that. There we got– what is that physics? Two episodes in a row. ‘Cause I talked about that last episode, too. So be sure that we're not miss-underestimating. That's not the right words. Be sure, we're not underestimating your child's need for movement simply because they have a body that often is at rest and has a hard time shifting from rest into movement, movement. Oh my gosh, yeah, we could do a whole series on movement, maybe we will. Movement is so important for our experience of ‘I exist.’ Okay, so, some bodies, some nervous systems, some sensory systems, and this seems to be more likely in kids who have experienced early attachment trauma, some nervous systems experience more dysregulation due to a lack of movement than others. And there are many reasons for this, the lack of movement, for lots of just sensory-based reasons can be super dysregulating. But for some people, the lack of movement also starts to really start to send off this experience of ‘I don't exist.’ And this is coupled with the fact that once we sort of shift into an intense state of lack of movement and we start to have this I don't exist feeling, which very few people can actually articulate. It is so hard to move, it is so hard to physically move, it's so hard to energetically move back into a state of oh, yes, I exist. So do not underestimate how important movement is for your child's sense of felt safety. And this doesn't have to be like running races and playing basketball, gross motor movement. That, you know, coloring gives movement, doing crafts does movement. Sensory inputs are things like weighted items, or Lycra is movement. I do talk about movement slightly in the book. But actually in the book, what I do is refer you to my colleague Marti Smith’s book, The Connected Therapist, which is my favorite resource to learn about kids and their sensory systems and how to support their unique sensory needs and how to do that through the lens of both attachment and trauma. 

Robyn: So the inside place, of inside, outside, and between, is also where we have to think about our kid’s neurotransmitters, amino acids, and gut health, things like that. Inside is where we're taking into consideration possible diagnoses like PANS or PANDAS, Lyme, co-occurring infections, and illnesses. This is, generally speaking, far outside my scope of practice. I know just enough to stay curious about it when I'm working with kids and families and say, “Hey, I think this warrants further assessments.” Dr. Javed was a guest on my podcast about a year ago, I'll make sure the link it's in the show notes, where we talked about neuroimmune disorders, how that contributes to baffling behaviors, essentially, because it's contributing to the nervous system being stuck in protection mode. And I do highly recommend you give that episode a listen, even if you have no reason to suspect that your child has an actual neuroimmune disorder, which is what we talked about mostly in that episode. I think Dr. Javed does a really great job of helping us understand from a physician's point of view, how the body and what's happening in the body, particularly with regard to infection and inflammation, can send cues of danger to our kid's neuroception into their minds and their bodies, and then how this can become a pretty intense feedback loop of living in protection mode. So I'm going to make sure that that link goes in the show notes. It looks like that was episode 98 and I also have episodes grouped together over on my website at robyngobbel.com/neuroimmuneseries. So again, a lot of these things are really outside my scope of practice, I learned just enough to know like when a referral seems appropriate. These kids need services or interventions that may be offered by people like occupational therapists, even physical therapists, psychiatry, nutrition, functional medicine, things like that things that are really tending to foundational body-based needs. My husband has a neuroimmune disorder and I interviewed him and that neuroimmune series and without question, my husband can at times be a grown-up with pretty intense oppositionality. Pretty intense, living in protection mode. And he's given me permission, is comfortable with me chatting about him on the podcast and we have had to look outside Western medicine, we kind of use a blend of both Western medicine and nontraditional alternative approaches to treatment to help support his nervous system being– his nervous system that lives often in protection mode, how can we help his nervous system experience connection mode more, and surely, of course, relational pieces are extremely important, right, the relationship with me and him the relationship between him and his provider is super important. But we have to be addressing the actual physiology, or nothing will shift for him. So addressing the physiology has been crucial. So again, if you have a kid who has been stuck in production mode for a long time. Even if you don't suspect a neuroimmune disorder at all, I would encourage you to go listen to that episode, Episode 98, I sort of suspect that in the coming decades, we're gonna see a pretty big shift in our understanding of things that we typically call mental health disorders, and we're gonna have a much much, much better understanding of how our physiology is contributing to the symptoms we would typically put under a mental health disorder. 

Robyn: Okay, so that was inside. Now let's look at outside. Outside is where we have to like critically look at the environment for cues of safety. So I tend to talk the most about things like offering structure, routine and predictability. Does your kid have a schedule? Do they know what's going to happen next? What does the environment look like or sound like or smell like? Right? It's felt safety being compromised during transitions or at recess or at specials at school, right? What kinds of different cues of safety or danger are present in the school environment in the home environment? And when I say cues of danger, I am not being critical, right? These aren't necessarily things that people are doing, quote-unquote, wrong. It's a relatively neutral description of something that your child's nervous system could be neurocieving as unsafe. And it could be as simple as again like sensory stuff, smells, tastes,  what things sound like, what they feel like, right? If you have a kid with sensory sensitivities, you might have a kid who won't wear certain socks,  that the feel of those socks or the feel that seam is a cue of danger. That's not criticism, that's not you doing something wrong, that's not the socks doing something wrong, it's just neutral information, right? So it's important to kind of apply that perspective to different things that are happening at the school and at your home. Now, the other important piece here is that you might discover things you can't do anything about, especially if it's not in your home. Like there's a lot of things happening in our kids' schools that we have no control over, we can't impact what the gymnasium sounds like, or what the cafeteria smells like, you know, we might be able to help our kid's schools make some accommodations for them. But ultimately, there are many things that we're not going to be able to shift or change or control. What becomes important is that we keep those things in mind. That when our kids are struggling, we remind ourselves like, well, this experience in this environment that they're having is sending them cues of danger. We can't fix that. And therefore it doesn't make any sense to expect my child to feel safe, right? And so the shift then becomes in understanding our kids and their behaviors, and then again, making accommodations if we can, but understanding, seeing them, using our X-ray vision, right? To see beneath their behavior and understand why they're in protection mode, why they're demonstrating oppositional behavior, and then not expecting that to change simply because we don't like it, right? Their nervous system will change when they receive enough cues of safety that they can be, you know, kind of invited into connection mode. 

Robyn: Alright, so we talked about inside, we talked about that for a long time. That's a big one, I don't think it gets talked about enough. We talked about the outside. Now let's talk about the between, this is the relational space where our kids are, you know, getting cues of safety or danger from. The number one thing that we want to look at is ourselves, am I in connection mode or protection mode, because as unfair as it is, it's pretty hard to invite our kids into connection and safety, if we're in protection mode. And I write a lot in the book about how just like wildly unfair this is. It's so unfair, that even though you are surrounded by cues of danger, because of everything that's happening in your life, and in parenting, your child and all that kind of stuff. It's unfair, that the responsibility remains on you to attempt to try to, despite all of those stressors, find a space of safety and regulation in your own nervous system. Okay, it's so unfair. And it's also true. So I think just recognizing the truth and the reality of that is really important. But I also do want to offer just a little, I don't know, solace for lack of a better word. If you have a nervous system that is pretty regularly or chronically in protection mode. My experience actually, and I wouldn't say this is in any way, shape, or form based on actual research. I mean, this decision has been informed by my understanding of the science and the research and my personal experience. But my personal experience is that even when I'm with families who are pretty locked into protection mode because of all the stressors that are happening in their life and in their family, the most important piece of the between space, the most important way we're going to send cues of safety to our kids through the between space is by keeping a hold of our own X-ray vision. Okay, so we want to keep hold of our X-ray vision for ourselves and for our kids. So, even if you feel really, really stuck in protection mode, really fried, really burnt out, really traumatized, right, let's just say what it is, even if you feel just really stuck in production mode, and then therefore maybe a little overwhelmed by the idea that your kid kind of needs you to be in connection mode, what I want you to hear me say is that the most important piece of this is that you keep your X-ray vision goggles on.  What that means is that you keep being able to see below behavior, you keep working towards knowing that your child is this precious, wonderful human, who is struggling a lot, struggling so much, that you have some pretty intense feelings towards them, right? And then use those X-ray visions on yourself. That even though you're really struggling, which you know, is that that's not because you're a bad person, you're not a failure, you're not a bad parent, you're not a bad mom, you're not a bad dad, you're not a bad grandma or grandpa, not a bad caregiver, you're not a bad teacher, you're not a bad therapist, you're just really far down the protection pathway. 

Robyn: You see the difference there, that even if you can't change anything, you can still keep those X-ray vision goggles on, you can still see below the behavior. And that matters, I actually think that matters just about more than anything. So if you are really stuck in protection mode, you feel completely unable to have the energy to do anything to soothe your own nervous system, if you can try to just do nothing else but keep those X-ray vision goggles on. And again, keep them on for your child, how you see your child, but also how you see yourself. That tends to be the most impactful. And then the second thing I'd say is the most impactful part of the between is can you offer a repair? Can you reflect on a moment of rupture with your child, be with yourself with compassion, and then offer a repair up to your children? So those are the two things that I find to be really most impactful in this between place? Can I keep my X-ray vision goggles on even if I can't do anything like actually do anything different? Like I'm still behaving in all the same, you know, burnt-out ways. But can I keep my X-ray vision goggles on? And can I practice even just a little bit offering repair? And if you have a child who’s spending a lot of time with an adult outside your family, who doesn't offer a lot of cues of safety from the between space, right, a teacher, principal and administrator or coach or caregiver, right? The important thing to do there is, of course, try to impact that person and your child's experience with that person. Of course, of course, but you know, we have limited impact there. The important thing to do is that you hold your child's behaviors then, in perspective, that you understand that their oppositional defiant behavior makes perfect sense. Given the experience with that specific adult or in that specific environment, we just simply cannot expect kids to change if the grown-ups can't. And that's not criticism to grownups because, you know, I feel the same way about grownups that I do about kids, they're all doing the very best that they can. But generally speaking, kids are the more vulnerable and we cannot expect the more vulnerable person in a relationship to be the one who changes. Again, that's a criticism against the adult if the adult is really struggling and they can't shift their nervous system into connection mode. But if the adult can't shift into connection mode, we can't expect the child– we can't expect the more vulnerable person in that relationship to make that shift. 

Robyn: So I have episodes on all the things I just talked about. Episode 13 is about X-ray vision. Episode 80 is about rupture repair. Episode 139 is about what to do if your nervous system is fried. Episode 8 is about self-compassion but basically every episode I record has self-compassion, you know, really infused into it. I will make sure links to all of those go in the show notes as well as over on my website. I always, in addition to the show notes that are in your podcast app– always over on my website is a longer summary of podcast episodes, which then includes the transcript. And so all of these links are live over there on my website as well. Alright, so next week, we're going to talk specifically about those kids who have been really hurt in relationship and we cannot rely on connection or relational engagement as a way to offer felt safety in the way that we can with other kids with vulnerable nervous systems, right? Like many kids with vulnerable nervous systems don't have experiences of disorganized attachment or relational or attachment trauma, right? But some kids and I know a lot of y'all listening, part of what's impacting your child's nervous system vulnerability is their previous negative experiences inside connection or attachment relationship, and that does add another layer to inviting a child with oppositional and defiant behaviors who is in protection mode– It adds another layer to inviting those kids and to connection mode. So we're going to look at that very specifically next week. And then wrap up this three-part series on oppositional and defiant behavior. 

Robyn: Of course, if you really want to deep dive, and explore the science of safety, and nervous systems that are in connection mode and protection mode, the very best place that you could go is to my new book, Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors, meaning it's the most like thorough and laid out in, you know, a scaffolded order. There's so much that you're gonna get here on the podcast as well. The book is just organized. So you can grab raising kids with big baffling behaviors really anywhere books are sold. You can also join us in the club. When the club is open, we really deep dive into all of these topics as well through masterclasses and of course, in our connections in the forum. Also, if you're new here, I do want to just remind you that in addition to the podcasts, my website is like overflowing with free resources at robyngobbel.com/freeresources. Okay, let's say that again, robyngobbel.com/freeresources, you're gonna find webinars, ebooks, infographics, there's so much there that's just freely downloadable. So if you haven't been there lately, I encourage you to go to robyngobbel.com/freeresources, and really just stock up on all those free resources and maybe give them to teachers and grandparents or partners and other folks that you want to help learn about the science of the nervous system. Alright, y'all, this has been fabulous! I will see you here next week with part three!