Polyvagal Theory, Hope, Dysregulation, and Repair {EP 234}

Robyn: So what I decided to do instead was to do some follow up interviews where I take chunks of the interview with Deb and highlight some of the things she was talking about that and do exactly what I wanted to do in the interview, which is to go even deeper and translate really what she's saying even more specifically for those of you parenting kids with big, baffling behaviors, so that's what we're gonna do today, and then the next few episodes before we get to that. If you are a new listener, I'm so thrilled that you're here. This is a podcast where you and I come together, and I offer the science of being relationally, socially, behaviorally human, and you offer what you know about yourself and your child and your family, and we kind of bring all of that together, which you know about your real life and what I know about the science, because you don't have time to go study the science, and I don't have time to move in with your family. So we kind of put those two pieces together to see if we can help make the science useful, applicable, something that's actually meaningful in your day to day life, and brings more regulation connection and felt safety to you, your child and your family.   

Robyn: Polyvagal theory is a theory of the nervous system that helps us understand why people do what they do. Polyvagal theory really looks at the autonomic nervous system, which brings the energy arousal and activation to our behaviors, and helps us decode why some folks seem to, in many ways, kind of be stuck in cycles of activation, in cycles of fight flight, in cycles of collapse, even when the danger or the terror appears to be over. Why do folks seem to spend longer in fight, flight, freeze, collapse, than what kind of feels like on the outside looking in is necessary. And the reason I am so curious about that question, and why I am so curious about polyvagal theory specifically, is because that really is underneath that description right there, being stuck in a cycle of activation and fight, flight, freezer claps, that really helps describe almost everything about our kids and the struggles that we're having with our kids and their big, baffling behaviors. They're really stuck. Yeah, they're having nervous system experiences that feel really confusing and baffling to us, and they have extremely sensitized stress response systems. So they are having big experiences of activation when those of us are kind of on the outside looking in or looking at it objectively, going but why? Why such an intense reaction. Polyvagal theory decodes that, polyvagal theory helps us bring back compassion and hope. What attracted me to polyvagal theory was the compassion. But what keeps me anchored into polyvagal theory is the hope.   

Robyn: So in last week's episode right around Oh minute 10 or 11-ish, Deb offered to us the idea that it's not the dysregulation that's the problem, per se, it's not the activation, it's not the arousal, it's not the dysregulation that's the problem or what's bad. It's not possible to be regulated all the time. It's not a goal that we have. It's not something we're working for. It would be completely devoid of humanity if we were regulated all the time. Dysregulation is just a part of being human, and if it's going to be a part of being human, we need to see it as just a part of being human, and not something that's bad or something that we're trying to avoid. Now I know that for those of you listening, the idea that regulation or, I'm sorry, dysregulation isn't what the problem is. I know that that can feel a little bit kind of bonkers, like, What do you mean that dysregulation is absolutely the problem, so we're gonna deconstruct that just a little bit more, because I agree with Deb. I can actually completely agree with Deb, but I think for that to be you a useful thought, you know, a useful idea in our lives, in my life, and in your life, as you're parenting a child with such a sensitive stress response system, I think for that to be a useful idea, we've got to explore some of the nuances just a little bit more. So let's first just kind of revisit and get on the same page about what regulated regulation, what those words mean. I actually define them really quite clearly in the in the book, and Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors.   

Robyn: Well, I think it's chapter four. I go through and give definitions of, you know, regulate, regulated, regulation. Regulated to be regulated does not mean to be calm. Regulated to be regulated means to be mindful, it means to be present, means to have, in our language, some capacity to stay connected to the owl brain, so that we can see and be with what's happening instead of being flooded by what's happening. I absolutely can be regulated and mad. I can have a feeling we would call quote-unquote negative and be regulated. Regulation, then, is more for me, about the process of kind of moving in and out of being regulated and dysregulated. Regulation is describing how useful or not useful it is to move between states of regulation and dysregulation and regulated as a word to describe a nervous system, as opposed to a moment in time. So the difference between saying I'm regulated right now versus I have a regulated nervous system right regulated as a word to describe a nervous system overall, is about being able to shift in and out of regulation with relative ease. I can be dysregulated and return to regulation with ease when the situation is appropriate, right, when safety has returned.   

Robyn: So Deb says regulated isn't better than dysregulated. Dysregulation isn't the problem. She said. She said dysregulation without repair is really what the problem is. So again, I know that for those of you listening, dysregulation is a problem, right? It in times probably feels like the dysregulated nervous system you're living with, and maybe it's even your own, is like ruining everything. So it's really hard maybe to hear the words like, dysregulation isn't the problem. It's just. Regulation without repair. Now I again, I totally agree with Deb. I mean, what's happening for so many of you listening is that there is a bunch of dysregulation without repair for several reasons. One is because there's a sense that the dysregulation doesn't end right? There's such a chronicity in the dysregulation, and repair comes from a regulated state. And so if nervous systems are never shifting back into safety and shifting back into regulation, then repair will remain elusive. So in that regard, she's absolutely right. Dysregulation in itself isn't what the problem is. It's dysregulation without repair, and if we're so chronically dysregulated that repair is not an option. Yeah, that's a problem.

Robyn: The other thing that I think wasn't articulated super clearly in last week's episode that I wanted to just highlight is that, yeah, we can say that dysregulation isn't the problem. What the problem is is the behaviors that emerge from the dysregulation, right? That the dysregulation, in and of itself, is relatively neutral. It's simply a state of the nervous system, and it's a state that we can trust is responding in the way that it's believes is best. However, without question, the behaviors that emerge from that dysregulation, those behaviors are a problem at times, right? And for some of you, it all it's all the time, the behaviors emerging from the dysregulation are a big problem. Now, is it helpful to distinguish between those two things, the dysregulation versus the behaviors that come from the dysregulation? Well, yeah, you know, I think we can think about that. I mean, it's helpful for me to make that distinction, and I think it's helpful for those of us that are in the role of helper to make that dysregulation, to make that I'm sorry, distinction, man, there's a lot of words here that are the same. It's helpful for me and those of us in the role of helper to make the distinction between dysregulation and the behaviors that come from dysregulation. And yes, I do think that as a parent, it could feel regulating to distinguish between dysregulation and behaviors. I think that if that feels possible to you, to make that distinction, then, yeah, I think that that's a great thing to distinguish between. And I think it could be regulating to you, and I think it could ultimately be helpful and kind of making your next move right, like deciding what to do next. What are we going to do with this dysregulation?   

Robyn: But without question, when I'm with parents of highly dysregulated kids, I am not prioritizing helping them see the very nuanced difference between dysregulation and the behaviors of dysregulation. And I would think very carefully before I you know, if I was face to face with a parent with a highly dysregulated kid whose behaviors were extremely dangerous, I would think very carefully before I said something like, well, it's not the dysregulation that's the problem. Dysregulation is neutral, like it would be so Miss attuned. It can be true and still not be helpful in that moment. I also know that thinking about how it's dysregulation without repair, that's the problem can can feel both relieving, I think, to some of us and not. I think for some of us, the possibility of repair brings so much hope and relief, so much hope and relief. Like my trust in the possibility of and in some relationships, the inevitability of repair brings me so so much relief. But for some of you, I absolutely get that repair after dysregulation doesn't feel possible. Number one, it doesn't feel like there's an after dysregulation. The dysregulation feels so chronic, but also, for so many of you listening, I know that your child won't receive the repair or won't participate in the repair process, and they certainly won't offer a repair, and then the rupture, the dysregulation, it just lingers. So if dysregulation without repair is the problem, that that might feel like kind of a big bummer to you, because you know, in your current situation, there's a whole lot of dysregulation and not a whole lot of or any repair.  

Robyn: So here's what I want to offer up to you in this moment, is to remember that all we can do is make the offering. All we can do is offer repair to our kids after their dysregulation or after ours, and what they do with that offering is their call, and yes. Dysregulated moments between us that go unrepaired aren't great for the relationship. That's true, dysregulation, ideally, is followed by repair, and when it's not that's not great. It's not great for the relationship, and it's not great for the nervous systems, right? The nervous systems that are really longing to find regulation, repair, reconnection, and even so, I really, really do believe that the offering, even if it's not overtly or obviously received, the offering matters. It gives our kids something new to hope for, something new to expect, and the offering of repair, even one that's rejected, means that we essentially first repaired with ourselves, that we were dysregulated and came back into regulation. That's a repair with ourselves. It's not an apology. Repairs and apologies aren't the same thing. It's a repair with ourselves, and that, repairing with ourselves that's real and important and valid, just like Deb and I talked about in last week's episode, when we find our way back to ourselves, we find our way back to our Owl brain. Our kids do experience that. They experience that shift in our nervous system, and that really matters.   

Robyn: You know, Deb said our kids might be too dysregulated to take in a repair, to take in our safety, to take in our connection, our offers of co-regulation. But even if they are, even if they are too dysregulated, and our offers don't disrupt the expression of their dysregulation. Their nervous system felt our regulation, and that is what we call a disconfirming experience, and that's what creates brain and nervous system change, even if it's imperceptible. Our dysregulated kids are expecting us to be dysregulated. Of course they are. That's what dysregulation expects. That's not a criticism of us or some indication that we've done something wrong. Dysregulation expects more dysregulation, but at the same time, it is hoping for regulation. It is hoping to be safe, seen, soothed and secure. That's Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson's language. That then is what we would call a mismatch, having an expectation but receiving what's hoped for. That that is what creates neurobiological change. So I have an older episode that's called Hope versus expectation. You can find that if you scroll back, I'll make sure the number gets in the in the show notes, if you're in the club, you can check out the attachment series, specifically the one about how attachment changes. There's a lot in there about the hope versus the expectation and how we change the neurobiology by offering when we can the hope instead of confirming the expectation.   

Robyn: Dysregulated people don't expect regulation, but they also don't expect to be seen. They don't expect the person who's with them to be able to kind of separate them from their dysregulation. They're longing for that. For sure. We All Long to be seen for who we really are, which is a precious person who's just really struggling in that moment. We're all longing for that, and our kids are longing for that too. And I know sometimes it does not feel that way, but they really, really are. When we stay regulated enough to stay curious, to wonder about what's going on with them, that also is a disconfirming experience. We don't even have to say anything out loud. It's about our way of being. It's about what's happening in our neurobiology, and it meets our kids neurobiology, and it is a disconfirming experience. I loved how Deb also talked about how part of a repair could be asking your kids how they would like things to go differently next time, or what we could do different next time and again. I know so many of you listening probably rolled your eyes at that suggestion, because revisiting a moment of dysregulation after it's over isn't something that feels possible for you. Your kid's not letting you reflect on the dysregulation, let alone communicate. Hating with you about what could be different next time, right? They're not brainstorming this with you, right? If anything, they're refusing to talk about it, or, you know, revisiting the situation is really reawakening that Watchdog brain again. And I talk about this a lot, and I think it's chapter nine of my book, because repair is such a crucial part of growing the Owl brain, and part of repair is kind of renegotiating like, how should this be different next time?

Robyn: And I also know that neurobiologically, kids with very vulnerable nervous systems are very, very, very fragile Owl brains really struggle to have that capacity to be regulated. And look at something that was dysregulated, right to be regulated, keep in their Owl brain while also bringing up the memory of or revisiting or thinking about a dysregulated moment. That takes a lot of, let's just say, Owl brain strength. And so many of you listening, your kids don't have that yet, but that's an important thing to remember, that that all this work you're doing with your child is growing their Owl brain, and it is growing their capacity to eventually be able to do that. So in the meantime, what I would say is maybe, just maybe, you can sneak in something kind of later, or after the fact, or when the dysregulation is over. That's just something like, Oh, that was hard. I wonder how it could go better next time. And it's just amusing. It's just rhetorical. You don't even expect an answer. You're just sort of like tossing it out in the air. And maybe even if you offer it as something rhetorical, your kid kind of snaps back at you anyway, and they something like, well, you can do something different, or you could do this better. Basically blame you for everything, right? But even if that happens, I want you to think of it like this, you offered a moment of connection with your curiosity, with your wondering, and it was too much for them, so they batted it away with their hostility. But maybe, just maybe, some part of them noticed that you offered, noticed that you were curious, noticed that you believed that it's not just about them being bad, but it's about something else that's going on.   

Robyn: And y'all, I really, really believe that that matters, and I believe that it matters because of what I know from polyvagal theory, and that's why polyvagal theory is a theory of hope. Deb said, we're looking for teeny tiny shifts, teeny tiny changes, teeny tiny nuances. And y'all, they might be so teeny tiny that you don't see them. You might not see them for a long time. And I get that that's not fair. I really get that that's not fair, and that you're going to offer, and you're going to make these attempts at repair, and you're going to work so hard to keep your X-ray vision goggles on, and you're going to work so hard to repair with yourself so you can offer co-regulation instead of more dysregulation. And you're going to work so hard at that, and you're not going to see a lot of observable behavior change, and that that's awful, and there's a lot of grief there. And the offerings matter. We might not see the results of it, but they do still matter.   

Robyn: So again, if you haven't yet checked out that episode with Deb. You just have to scroll back one episode. It was last week, and the part that I'm talking about today, in this week's episode starts at about minute 10. I think with Deb, I have several more of these episodes planned where I'm going to take a chunk of that episode I did with Deb and go further into it. So if you haven't listened to the episode, maybe you want to listen to the whole thing before next week, when we deep dive a different part of that interview with Deb. Now, if you are new to The Baffling Behavior show and you're wondering where you can learn a little more about Owls and Watchdogs and Possums, you can just head to RobynGobbel.com and explore all of my goodies over there, I have a pretty robust free resources page on my podcast page of my website, you can search for the topic you're looking for my podcast page has a search bar. There is information about my online community that you could benefit from that's called the club. It's for parents of kids with vulnerable nervous systems and big baffling behaviors. So just go to RobynGobbel.com explore it all. You can find information about my book Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors, and of course, y'all Bookmark The Baffling Behavior Show, subscribe to it in your podcast app, so that when a new episode comes out, you know about it right away. And at this point, we're at like episode 230 something, right? So I can almost guarantee that if there's a topic you're curious about, I probably have talked about it, and so you can scroll through the episodes and look at the titles, or, again, you can head to RobynGobbel.com/podcast and use the search bar there.   

Robyn: All right, y'all It was wonderful to be with you again today. It was so wonderful to introduce you to Deb Dana, or, you know, just reconnect you to Deb Dana if you knew of her work before last week. And I am loving the idea of, really, you know, kind of geeking out on the science and helping it be even more useful to you. So keep coming back. Keep pressing play. I will be with you again next week. Bye!