Screentime & Mental Health with Debbie Steinberg Kuntz {EP 132}

Robyn: Now, y’all know that I am passionate about the why of behavior. But baffling kids are exactly that. They're baffling. And then, when we're parenting them, we find ourselves acting in ways that are baffling us. So, gosh y'all, like 15 years ago, I dove deep into the field of interpersonal neurobiology with Dr. Dan Siegel. And then ultimately my mentor, Bonnie Badenoch, to try to figure it out, like what is going on? I wanted to know what behavior really is. So interpersonal neurobiology, and then this broader field of relational neuroscience, ultimately, offered me a map. A map of the nervous system, a map of behaviors and confidence that all behaviors do indeed make sense. And that's what we do here on the Parenting After Trauma podcast, we make sense of baffling behaviors. 

Robyn: In today's episode, I'm interviewing Debbie Steinberg Kuntz, a mental health therapist in the Pacific Northwest and founder of Bright and Quirky which is a virtual online psycho-education company. For parents of kids who are, well, bright and quirky. She supports families of kids who are twice exceptional, including gifted kids with learning disabilities, ADHD, anxiety, and autistic kids. I know so many of you are parenting twice exceptional kids because these two kids often have very vulnerable nervous systems and, yes, pretty baffling behaviors. So, Debbie is hosting a free five day summit with some guests as experts, some that you already know about and you already trust including Dr. Mona Delahooke. Y'all remember Dr. Delahooke was a guest on the podcast last spring. And I know so many of you read Dr. Delahooke’s books. They fit in so beautifully with everything that we talked about. Here on the podcast. The Bright and Quirky Summit is an annual event, but this year's focus was on screen time and mental health. And when I heard that, I knew I needed to make sure you all knew about this upcoming summit. There's actually an entire day devoted to helping kids transition off screens. Which, I know from everything I hear from y'all, and especially Club members, that transitioning off screens is a huge issue in your home for your kids. But also maybe actually even for you. So before we get into the episode, I do want to give you a quick little caveat, kind of a content warning, I guess. I know that your nervous system might be feeling so vulnerable right now. So burned out. That the idea of giving energy to trying to create healthy boundaries with screens is simply feeling like way too much for you. You might feel you're only barely surviving because of you and your child's unlimited screen use. So I'm here to remind you that as always, this is a no shame, no blame, no judgment zone. If screentime is something that you just do not have the window of tolerance to even consider addressing, then maybe skip this episode. I know parenting kids with histories of tru- complex trauma offers really unique challenges with screen time, and screen time boundaries, and transitioning off screen time and we just really weren't able to cover that in depth in this episode. More than anything, hear me when I say that neither I nor Debbie are judging any parents for the screen time use in your family. If you feel up for listening to some tips for balancing screentime with mental health in your family, keep listening. If it feels like just too much today, maybe scroll back to episode 121 with Melissa Corkum and Lisa Qualls where we talked about our nervous systems. Like our burnt out, exhausted nervous systems as parents and healing from blocked care. Or maybe scroll all the way back to episode 18. Y'all. What a different podcast this was back then. Episode 18, where I talk about self compassion keeping you regulated. And I know that the topic of screen times can oftentimes evoke so much shame in us as parents, and if you're noticing that I want you to take a breath [audible breath] and scroll back to episode 18. And just kind of swim and self compassion instead. 

Roby: Y'all today's interview, this is the first time I met Debbie. So you and I are getting to know Debbie at the exact same time. When you're done with today's episode, head to RobynGobbel.com/BrightAndQuirky and you'll be able to register for the free virtual summit that starts May 15. It's all about screen time, mental health, and bright and quirky kids. All right, here we go. 

Robyn: Debbie, welcome to the Parenting After Trauma podcast. I'm so excited to have this opportunity get to know you. Thank you. 

Debbie Steinberg Kuntz: Thanks for having me, Robyn. 

Robyn: Yes, you know, I told you before we hit record, I very rarely do interviews with guests that I don't have a pretty established relationship with. So this is going to be fun. I'm really looking forward to just sort of the unexpected place this is going to take us. 

Debbie: Me too. 

Robyn: Can we get started with you just giving me and all of my listeners just a little information about you?

Debbie: Sure! I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist just outside of Seattle. I had a private practice for over a decade and then took my practice online, started doing annual summits. I just love interviewing people like this and I- my topic of choice is bright and quirky kids. Kids who are really bright with learning social, emotional, and behavioral challenges. And lately, one of the issues that's really up for our population is screentime and mental health. So taking a deep dive into that. We're doing a summit on that this spring. And I also have some training and trauma. I did EMDR in my practice. So yeah, that's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. 

Robyn: I love this, my audience is gonna love this conversation so much. I think the overlap in the these bright and quirky kids and 2E kids and just their nervous system vulnerability. It's not exactly like the nervous system vulnerability that I see in kids with complex trauma. But there's so many similarities, I think, especially from a parenting standpoint. The sense of confusion, sometimes, or like, the common mainstream parenting advice feels like it's just not quite hitting the mark. 

Debbie: Yeah.

Robyn: So I think that they're gonna learn a lot. My listeners are gonna learn a lot from our conversation today.

Debbie: Oh, good. I think whether a child is gifted, or is on the autistic spectrum, has ADHD, dyslexia, anxiety, all of those nervous systems are really unique. 

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. So this year's summit, screen time and mental health. Tell me where that emerged from. Why is that what you wanted to focus on this year?

Debbie: Well, it's- it's kind of interesting. I went on this business retreat last fall. And we were sort of reflecting on how we've gotten to this point, what we want to focus on moving forward. And like so many of us, we're trying to troubleshoot what's going on in our own homes. I have bright and quirky kids. 

Robyn: Yep. 

Debbie: They've fueled my passion, and my specialty, and therapy, and- but the topic I really hadn't dug into in a big way was screentime and mental health. And all of us, I mean, the more I learned, the more I was like, well, I can clean up my own habits. Like I might be working, but man, I need some more boundaries. And you know, so many of our kids are- I sent this big survey to our list got over 700 families who responded, and they were telling us their biggest issues. Like parents, kids, and teens alike all said the number one issue is getting off screens. And it's no surprise, I mean, big tech is investing billions of dollars, there's tens of thousands of engineers figuring out how to capture our intent- attention, keep us engaged, especially for our friends with executive function challenges. And really all of us. It's- it's a battle for our attention. And there's so many potential distractions that- and, you know, me personally, as a mom, I think I had my head in the sand a little bit. I just didn't realize how, through, you know, YouTube, video games, social media. How it crept into our lives. It was sort of so under the radar, that as I'm looking under the hood now, peeling the layers of the onion, I'm sort of like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea what was coming into my house. 

Robyn: Yeah, it's interesting how you- you kind of led the conversation with I mean, we work online, right? I have a virtual business like you do. And it is so easy to kind of let that almost like, justify, I don't know if justify is the right word, but- see it in a different way. It's like, well, I'm at work, right? But then it's like, well, I'm at work again, checking my email again, or oops, I'm clicking on this link again, or, oh, I'm sorry, we were in the middle of a conversation and I turned to my notifications. It's wild.

Debbie: Exactly it really is wild and I think we don't realize that we need boundaries until we think about, okay, do I want to be looking at my smartwatch through a meeting? You know, what is healthy use and what is overuse? 

Robyn: Yeah.

Debbie: And what are the sort of protective factors in our offline life that we need to have a need boundary so that our online life doesn't crowd out these important offline factors? 

Robyn: I would love to talk about just this idea of boundaries. Especially for these kids that you call bright and quirky, because I know my audience will really resonate with that language as well. Like these kids are just a little different. And there tends to be a little more attraction, I think, to the devices, to the screen time, just like you said, harder to transition off. But I also hear parents say, I- like, I, the parent need a break. And then you know, letting my kid be on screens is a great way for me to get a break. But then there's this next piece that happens of, well, then I feel some shame. Like, I shouldn't be using the screen to give me a break. And so I'd love to just hear your thoughts on that and how a family develops boundaries that work for them and the uniqueness of their family and their kids. 

Debbie: Absolutely. Yes. Such a good question. And, you know, our kids are unique, their nervous systems, their brains are all like fingerprints. They're all so unique. So what I want to start with is that what might look right for your family might be- look completely different in another family. So different families, different roles. Let's start with that, and no judgment. But it really is up to us to inform ourselves on what really matters. So let's say you need a break. Let's say your child needs a break. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Debbie: I know, Robyn, you're talking about the nervous system. When our nervous system goes in the red zone, we're in fight or flight. It can be a tool in the toolkit to go online. And it really does disrupt- it can disrupt that sort of pattern of thinking, and we do something different, then we feel better. So let's just be really conscious that, okay, I need to get some stuff done, or I want to make myself feel better. Let's start with an intention before we go on. How much work do you need to get done? Or how much of a break do you need? Do you think a reset will- will be okay? Maybe it's an hour, let's say it's an hour. Well, we know okay, we're gonna set the timer before our child even goes on, so that it doesn't turn into five hours. Or maybe if we need five hours of work time, we get grandma to come over and do an art project with them. Or, you know, we put out the origami paper, we put out a project. So it's all about portion size. You know, let's think about a food analogy. If I had a buffet of chocolate desserts on the counter in my kitchen, I'm pretty sure I would take a bite of something every time I walk by, and that’d be really good, and then I'd keep digging in. Well, that's exactly how things on the Internet work, especially on social media, video games, and with video scrolling. The algorithms know to give us more of what we enjoy. And it is spiking dopamine in the brain. And the more dopamine is spiked, the more we want to do it. And so then what happens when it's time to get off, you know, which is so difficult. Parents and kids are sort of at loggerheads and kids are like, I just want a little more, I just want a little more and we parents do it too. No, I just want to do a few more things. But really, that is how addiction starts. That we want more, and we think that a higher dose will give relief. But really, it exacerbates the problem. So if we start with time limits, and content limits in mind, it's just like, you know what? I'm going to try and have three meals today two snacks and a treat. It's going into it knowing, you know, all good things in moderation. 

Robyn: Yeah, so I think I'm hearing you really emphasize like this mindful intentionality, like, let's put conscious thought into whatever decision is that we're gonna make, and the decision can be flexible. Like if it works today but doesn't work tomorrow then- then let's talk about maybe making a different decision. But the really, one of the key pieces here is like the mindful intentionality behind it. Am I getting that right? 

Debbie: Exactly right. There's a lot of research about making intentional plans, whether it's about exercise or weight loss, and the same goes for screens. It's- there's just so many temptations and distractions and rabbit holes that if we set that timer in advance, a lot of families will use apps and technology to say when screens go off. Some actually lock the phones in a safe at night, phones have a curfew. One of my speakers in the summit was talking about the forest app. That it if you set it for some unintentional time, the tree grows. And then you know, if you use that app for you know, well, I just gotta check my email, the tree dies. So, you know, technology can be your friend, and I'm huge technology friend- fan. So, yes, it's all about how do you intentionally want to use it? And there's a book that came out recently called The Good Life. And in it, they talk about the 85 year long Harvard longitudinal study. It's so, so good. And I'm just going to cut to the chase and let you know, after studying, all of these people, thousands and thousands of people over 85 years, in terms of what leads to well being is positive relationships. So one of the really great things for our kids to do online is things where they're interacting with other kids. So video games with friends, totally okay. Maybe what you're- like what we're doing here. We're on Zoom. I've just made a new friend. It's awesome. So, you know, thinking intentionally, hey, positive relationships are so important. How can we do that online? But then not have so much online, that we're not making friends in real life. And what we know for bright and quirky kids is they- we cannot focus 100% on remediation. We need to blow on the embers of their strengths and interests. So let's get them into offline activities where they can meet their peers in real life, and talk about the things they love, do the STEMI things and the coding, and theater. So important to be socializing online and offline.

Robyn: Oh, my gosh, there's so much coming up for me for the things that you're saying one- I'm thinking about, one, my own kid that we moved across the country, right before the pandemic. He started eighth grade in a new school. Did it for six months, pandemic hits. And then for his ninth grade year, we knew he was gonna go to a different school again, because he wanted to go to a charter school that was, you know, very subject focused. So he was gonna have to start all over. And those friends from his eighth grade year, years ago now, he's a junior, are still his, actually his closest friends, even more so than some of the kids that he spends, like day in and day out with at school. Because of how they were able to keep their friendship, like nurtured through different apps and some of them are gaming apps, right? Like they were gaming together. But some of them were just us- it wasn't FaceTime, it was essentially FaceTime, right? Just the way that they were connecting with one another, and it does- it just felt really important to pause for a moment and notice a part of technology that was really good.

Debbie: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: Yeah. So maintaining those relationships are a key protective factor in his mental health. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: So, yeah, I really want to drive the point home, that screen time is not bad. Technology, the internet is not bad. To be intentional, and say, you know, we go to the grocery store. I think they say the perimeter is where all the healthy food is, you know, the produce, the proteins. It's kind of the same thing. What- what is the parameter for your child's screen time, and your own, and what is the more like junky, processed food in aisles that, you know, creates or fine moderation? So I love that example you just gave because that- that is a mental health booster staying in touch with good friends.

Robyn: Oh my gosh, absolutely. And I also thought about how easy it is to do- I think it's so important for us as parents to see how we're mirroring what the-, you know, what's happening with our kids. But it's so easy for me, especially because of how I work, to be like, I just need one more minute. Just one more minute. Just one more minute, y'all, I'll be done. I just want- and check my email one more time. And all of a sudden, my husband's like, um, you said you would be done in one minute, 45 minutes ago?

Debbie: [laughs] I know, I know!

Robyn: I’m like, oh, my gosh, you're totally right. Like, I just- I fell down like one more minute, rabbit hole. And you know, nobody's barking at me like, it- it's time to get off, you have to get off, you have to get off. Which would be so hard on my autonomy, my nervous system, especially feeling this sense of like, but I just have to get this one more thing done! So I'm thinking about that in relation to our kids. That one more minute, one more minute thing.

Debbie: I'm telling you, the struggle is real. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Debbie: I have so- I have some mommy guilt around this. You know, this is totally real. And you know, you know, Robyn, building online businesses, like, you're always sort of treading water. And like, if I could just do one more thing, if I could just have, you know, three more hours in the day.

Robyn: Right.

Debbie: I think this is where we really have to have grace and self compassion to say, what is good enough look like? You know, with my exercise, do I exercise anywhere near the amount I would like? No. Is it good enough most weeks? Yeah. 10% away from like, good enough. So we need to have grace and self compassion. And that can be a real bonding conversation with your kids to say, you know, “honey, believe me. I know how hard it is to stop. Why don't we band together as a team? And let's have an alliance of you and me sort of thinking and talking about how we want to deal with our screen use?”

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: “If we can team up against it and say, well, yeah, you do one more minute, too. Yeah, I totally know. Like, what are some experiments we want to run on that? Do we want to, you know, use the forest app? Do we want to have, you know, some other apps going? Do we want to set timers?” Yes, believe me it is. It's a challenge for us parents too. Big time. 

Robyn: It brings me back to how we started, which is like with this intentionality. Because never ever when I say I just need one more minute do I actually need just one more minute, right? [laughter] Like, if I could pause and be like, okay, it's time to transition off. It's time for evening, it's time for dinner or whatever, whatever. I still have two emails I wanted to send and whatever. And then really was thoughtful and intentional about like, how much time is that going to take me? Okay, that's probably gonna take me 20 minutes, I'm going to set my timer for 20 minutes. And when the timer is done, I'm going to- I'm going to be done. As opposed to just one more minute, just one more minute, just one more minute. And then 45 minutes has gone by. And I think about all the kids I know that there could be you know, it might not, quote unquote, work immediately. But if we shifted more into this, well, you know, like if I had a kid and they said, “well I just need one more minute”, you know, maybe a “do you really just need one more minute? Or do you really need 10? I'll bet 10 is how many you need to finish this game? How about we agree on” you know, I just wonder about bringing that- that in mindful intentionality into it.

Debbie: I love that. Not everyone can do that.

Robyn: Totally.

Debbie: If you can do that. That's amazing. I think it is really valuable to think about lifestyle design and habits. I love the book Atomic Habits by James Clear, one of the best selling books. It's incredible. I actually paid my kids to read it. 

Robyn: Oh, fun.

Debbie: And then my older son who's in college, got all his roommates to read it, which was really cool. They're like, mom, it's our new Bible. 

Robyn: Oh, man, that's so fun. 

Debbie: So fun. So, um, you know, and Robyn, I think the fact that so many of us are working remotely with our work and home life blended makes it an even bigger onion to peel. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: So I think okay, lifestyle design. If I do my work in my office, and then I decide I want to be done by X time. And I- how can I visualize, you know, after my timer goes off at 5pm, I'm going to close my computer, turn off the lights, leave this room, and go exercise. Then I'm going to make dinner and I'm going to give myself some homework time, maybe from eight to nine o'clock at night. I have my homework time that I, you know, it's typically more mindless tasks, I do my best thinking in the morning. But sometimes you- you know, you need that homework time at night. So whatever habits work for you, think about lifestyle design. Because we also want- our- we want our nervous systems to feel in the green zone. We don't want to have that shame and blame towards ourselves, like, oh, I F’ed it up again. But it's like, let's think about what we really need. And it's okay. I mean, a lot of people do a little catch up- a lot of parents do catch up work once the kids are down, or what's dinner is over. And I'm having these conversations at the dinner table. Like, if we could wave our magic wand and wake up tomorrow and design our lifestyle the way we want it, with our tech, with our offline things. These are great conversations to have. This should not be like an unspoken dynamic. And I just want to add something, we have something in our family called forced family fun. That we started sort of tongue in cheek. But you know, nobody wanted to get off their screens. And we- we live in the Pacific Northwest. It's beautiful. We're surrounded by mountains and the ocean. We said, okay, guys, once a weekend, we're gonna have forced family fun, and we go downhill skiing, or cross country skiing, or hiking, or biking, and the kids would start sort of grumbling. And what we realize is, we all have fun once we get out there. So I love this idea. Like you don't have to coax and convince your kids to do a family event. It's just like, guys, on the weekend, we do forced family fun. We can take turns choosing who does what. We can write a bunch of ideas on a piece of paper and pull them out of a mayonnaise jar. You know, however you want to do it. But be intentional about having family fun. As many weeks as you can. 

Robyn: Yeah. Yeah. Can we- I'm so eager to watch the summit and hear what folks are saying about exactly what you said at the beginning, getting kids to transition off. Can you give us a little sneak peek about what we're going to hear from those experts? Because I know- I mean, just like you said, That's what folks are saying is the hardest thing. That's what I'm hearing too. In my community, my membership, it's like, the explosions around it's time to transition, kind of in general, but especially off of the high intensity of screens. 

Debbie: Mm hmm. 

Robyn: What are the experts saying as some helpful tips? 

Debbie: Yeah, this is our focus of day one of the summit and just you guys know, it's a free summit.

Robyn: Yep!

Debbie: And I think, Robyn, they can sign up in the shownotes? 

Robyn: Yeah, absolutely. I'll make sure everybody gets a link. And yes, y’all, it's totally free.

Debbie: Okay, fantastic. The thing we're thinking about is a paradigm shift. This paradigm we've been under is that we're going to sort of think about it as power over versus power with. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Debbie: I think, up until now, we have thought about how do I limit my childs’ screen time? What apps do we need? What rules do I need? And that's sort of powering over them. So then what happens with a lot of kids especially as they sort of ooze into tech overuse and screen addiction is then they're trying to hack the system. And I don't know if you remember, years ago, there was a movie, Screenagers, and the kid goes to college and he fails out and he didn't learn- he didn't learn int- intrinsic limits.

Robyn: Yeah.

Debbie: So what do we do instead? We look at power with. We have those collaborative conversations, like we've been talking about. Like, you know, into-, you know, thinking mindfully, intentionally, and having those family conversations. “Okay, how long do you want to be online? Let's run an experiment. If you say like, four hours, let's run a little experiment. You know, how do you feel in hour one, in hour two, in hour three?” And one of our speakers, he's the healthy gamer psychiatrist, Dr. Alok Kanojia. He takes us through a whole roleplay about this and- and he was an addicted video gamer himself. So I love the wounded healers. I love people who've been through the challenge. I think they're the best. And he's like, you know, when you have a conversation like that with your child like, how gung ho they are an hour one is not going to be how gung ho they are an hour three or four. So really checking in to the nervous system. We also have a talk with Mona Delahooke about how to do an internal check in about how your nervous system is, and then make decisions around that. So have a really collaborative conversation. How do you feel when you are online for certain amounts of time? How do you feel when you're accessing certain amounts of content? Kids who have been overusing for a long time, they have shame, they have regret, that they have wasted parts of their childhood. And- but if we're going to come in with shame and blame and power over, they're not going to open up and be vulnerable with us about that. So creating a really safe space for conversation and saying, “hey, so you feel like you have wasted some time”. And really, who of us have- hasn't gotten down, you know, YouTube rabbit holes? “Let's just talk about how we want to troubleshoot that” and just normalize like, yeah, there are tens of thousands of engineers being paid to figure out how to capture your attention. Like, no wonder we feel powerless. Yeah, it's just amazing. So really, this whole paradigm shift from power over to power with, and having these collaborative conversations about how the algorithms work, how dopamine spikes in our brain, and we want more and more and more. How we want to spend our time. And then we can have different kinds of conversations as a family. We can say, you know, okay, you have karate at four o'clock. Would you like a reminder at three o'clock so it's easier to get off screens? And just have these little agreements, and be talking about these micro decisions. You know, we've had many of these conversations in my house, you know, “honey, when dinner- when I've worked hard to make a nice dinner, and is on the table. And I asked you to come when you know that it's been on That bums me out”. You're like, yes, nodding silent. Like, I’ve been there!

Robyn: Yep, that conversation has happened. My husband is the one who makes dinner at our house. But yes, it's a similar thing. Like, it's hard to work really hard at something and then have you not show up. Like have you not do your end of the bargain? 

Debbie: Right. Yeah, right. So those are all really fantastic conversations to have. And then when we're brainstorming and troubleshooting, and the kid can say, “yeah, but you know what, all my friends are online now”. 

Robyn: Yup.

Debbie: “What do I do when all my friends are online?” You know, how- and maybe he can have some collaborative conversations with friends, say, you know, “my family normally eats dinner at 6:30. Can we get on at 7:30? Can we get on at 8:00?” It's a lot of collaboration to happen. And same with bedtime. 

Robyn: Yup.

Debbie: You know, a lot of teens, like, they'll go to bed til the friend group is getting offline. You- you know how that goes. So power with, collaboration, intention, and this circles back to that finding of positive relationships being such a protective factor in our life. Because our relationship with our kids, you know, we can go to such loggerheads over tech. But if we take this approach, it's really weaving that fabric of relationship in our families. 

Robyn: I love hearing about hearing our kids' voices and valuing what their input is. And I remember my son, essentially saying the same thing like “but mom, all of my friends are online”. I think it was a Saturday thing with how screen time usage worked, kind of, in our family was how we approach the weekends versus how it was working for his friend group. And they really weren't lining up. And that was a fair thing for my son to bring up. And so to be collaborative with him. First of all, I didn't even know, right? Like for him to say, “well, the reason is because all of my friends are online or- or my friends have part time jobs, and they're at work from XY”, you know, to then. And so we're like, so I think that that spirit of collaboration and approaching things so curiously, and really being open to the information that our kids are giving us. And- and for it to matter. For it to matt- like my kid’s social relationships are as important as mine.

Debbie: Yeah. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: Yeah, so true. And you for parents listening, they might not have the solutions right away in their mind. What a life skill to say I have this problem I haven't figured out a solution to yet. I know I can collaborate and have a conversation with the people who are closest to me. And together, we could think of three or four experiments we could run. You know, whether it's apps, timers, moving dinner time. There's so many variables we could tweak. You know, the more I think about it- I think life is like a jigsaw puzzle, and we're just putting different pieces in and figuring out different things. So when we focus on tech, the answers might not be immediately obvious, but everything is figure out-able. It will always default to love and relationship. 

Robyn: Yeah, the reminder of that, that we don't have to know the answers immediately. And simply because we don't know the answer doesn't mean there isn't one. It just means we maybe need a little more time to ponder it, or consider it, or compromise. And I was working on something earlier today that's fitting into what we're talking about right now, too. Which is we also can't expect our kids to not have grumpy feelings about ending an activity they're really enjoying, and that it's okay. Right? Like, it's okay for my kid to be upset that he- it's time to end something that he was really enjoying. The same way it's okay for me to be upset when I'm- have to, you know, I don't have to joyfully and the something I'm doing for it to be, you know, considered cooperative, right? So I talk with parents about that a lot. Like it's okay for your kid to grumble or be unhappy or verbally express “I don't want my-, you know, screen time in this instance to be over?” We can validate that and talk about how, “yeah, it is hard to stop doing things we're really enjoying. That's- that's a bummer.”

Debbie: Yeah, I think really being compassionate around that. And I would love it if families before that point, have that family conversation about let's brainstorm and make the boundaries, make the limits. We can come together in a week, or a month or whatever, and revisit these boundaries. But in between, yeah, it might feel hard to get off. But these are the boundaries we've agreed on. And then we'll revisit them soon.

Robyn: Yes.

Debbie: Because then kids feel agency to say, this really isn't working for me. But you know what, I had a part in creating these boundaries and limits and I can be a part of revising them. So it's just not me against the bad guy, as me as the kid against the bad guy. It's like, we are in relationship making these agreements, and we can keep revisiting them. But we're not going to do it in the heat of the moment. And yes, it's going to be difficult to turn them off sometimes. 

Robyn: Yeah. I love that. What else can people look forward to in the summit? What are some of the- what are some of the bright spots?

Debbie: One thing we haven't talked about- that is, well, many things, many things. But day one of the summit is how to get off of screens. Day two is the intersection of technology and mental health. We have a day on neurodiversity and screens for our friends on the autistic spectrum, with ADHD, learning differences, or anxiety. And then we have a day on habits. And we have a day on offline fun. Because one of the things we haven't talked about is when screens take up more and more time, one of the detrimental effects is not what's happening on the screen. But what's not happening in real life. 

Robyn: Yeah, what they're missing.

Debbie: Like those positive- what they're missing! Like those positive relationships, like those life skills, helping out at home, though, that self regulation. You know, we talked about our kids having race car brains with bicycle brakes. You know, getting off of screens is strengthening. As you practice, you're strengthening those bicycle brakes. Doesn't feel that pleasant at the time. But this is how kids build executive function. So really, thinking about what habits, what intentional plans we want to have. And then the final day of the summit is about offline fun. And I interviewed two different authors who have done a ton of research into fun. I mean, Robyn, I don't know about you-  I get the sense, you're a very conscientious person. I am too. It's like unstructured play for ourselves, for our kids has kind of fallen off the radar for a lot of us. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah.

Debbie: And the research says that play and fun is so restorative. It is a protective factor for our mental health. And so, it's sort of like, okay, once we get our boundaries and our containment right around online activities, you know, so many of us are like, we turn off the screens, and we're like, what do I do now? So really building that up to, you know, think about positive relationships, think about niche interests. What are my hobbies? What am I curious to learn about? And I interviewed one teenager, I interviewed a bunch of teens before thinking about the focus of the summit. And he said, online, I learned about butterfly knives, and they have these practice butterfly knives. They do all these fancy tricks. And then he got together offline with this group of people he met online. So I think it's so cool. Like a lot of people will use YouTube to learn, you know, how to cook, how to play pick up ball, how to fix an engine, how to do whatever, and then they go do it offline. So think about how can my online learning fuel my offline learning, fuel my relationships, fuel my strengths, and fuel my learning? And- and to really think about, okay, we need to leave space for the things that need to happen for our mental health offline.

Robyn: Oh, my gosh, yes. And we talk about that a lot with the parents that I support and work with is what are we doing for ourselves? It has gotten so hard to sometimes even to leave the house, to- and not that you have to leave the house, but just that mindset of shifting and doing something different. And I think especially when we're caring for kids who are so vulnerable in their nervous systems, and they need so much scaffolding and so much co-regulation that parents are just exhausted. And turning to things like screens as a way to get some kind of like entertainment with very, very low output, right? Like there's not a lot of energetic output that goes into consuming, you know, what's happening on the screens. And so for parents, one, to give themselves so much compassion about-

Debbie: Yeah 

Robyn: -being in that place, so much compassion. And then just looking for teeny, tiny, teeny, tiny, little ways. I love your idea of take something you're- you learn online or with a screen, and then kind of like move it off the screen as a way of jus-just beginning this scaffolding. I love that idea.

Debbie: Yeah, it's just want to acknowledge parents who, you know, whose kids have gone through trauma, who, you know, have trouble with self regulation, with behavior. These are- there are some hard days. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah.

Debbie: And I think it's totally okay to say, today is hard. I'm going to have my kid on screens because you know what? We all need a breather. That's okay. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: That's okay. It's what happens chronically and habitually that's more of the issue that we want to reset. But to say that as part of our intention plan like today, I need a respite plan. Part of my respite plant is screens. And I totally get it. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: And then we also want to say, you know, what fuels- what can heal parent burnout? You know, that's where we want to look at rest. Getting out in nature. Make a list of your own comfort plan. Your own joy lists. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: You know, parents can just, you know, pick up- take a piece of scrap paper out for a minute, jot down five things that bring you joy. You know, there's a lot of beauty in sitting on the couch with a book and a cup of tea. Walking in nature, calling a friend. And you can narrate for your child. You know, I'm feeling really burned out right now. And, you know, tempted to go on screens, but I'm going to grab a book and a cup of tea. Or let's plan on going to the park later because I need a mental health reset. Let's all get a reset later with a walk around the neighborhood. So really talking about, you know what? I'm going to help myself my nervous system, get back in the green zone and work my joy list or my self care list. That's great conversations to have as a family. 

Robyn: Oh, yeah, narrating, I think, out loud and showing connection and mindful awareness of our own interstates. And my audience is used to talking about the owl, and the watchdog, and the possum pathways, which are similar to the green and the red and the blue. But narrating and- and showing that mindful connection to self. Like, I can be aware that I'm starting to move onto my watchdog pathway or my possum pathway. And that's not good or bad, with no judgment. But also, it doesn't always feel great. And so maybe inst-, I really noticed myself wanting to just, you know, scroll mindlessly. I think instead, I'm gonna go off for a walk. I love the idea of just narrating all of that without the intent- intention of like, manipulating our kids or trying to get them to, you know, go along with us necessarily. But just to like, narrate that process of self attunement is so wildly important for our kids for all reasons, not just about screens.

Debbie: Yeah, and I think also to narrate those nervous system states in our kids. You know, “honey, I see that you're playing the video game”. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Debbie: “It doesn't look that enjoyable to me right now. What I'm seeing is your- your forehead crumpled, your hands in a ball. That tells me your nervous systems in the red zone, whatever you call it. Help them acknowledge. You know, it can be very hard to have that metacognition of, you know, what  state my nervous system is in and we don't learn that in school. So to really be narrating and noticing is very helpful. 

Robyn: Yes. Oh, well, this has been so delightful. I'm so, so glad we were able to work this out so quickly in our schedules, and be able to meet together this afternoon and super excited for my audience to just know about the summit and know that it's free and full of all of these experts. Some of them that they've heard, you know, heard on this podcast, and that they'll be able to go check that out. I believe, when this airs, the summit will be next week. But y’all listening, just go check the show notes, all the details there. 

Debbie: Yeah, and the live summit is May 15th through 19th, 2023.

Robyn: Thank you, Debbie. This has been really fantastic. I'm so glad to have met you today.

Robyn: Thanks, Robyn. I've really enjoyed it.