My Child Won’t Talk About Their Watchdog And Possum Brain {EP 160}

Robyn: In this episode, we're going to specifically talk about teaching our kids about their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain and I did an episode on this previously, I'll link to it in the show notes. And I also have taught a full webinar all on this. It's like 90 minutes long, so it's pretty thorough. And that webinar now lives in the club. All of my video teachings, webinars, masterclasses all of that live inside the club. In fact, I think we're up to a video library of like 85 videos. And so if you want to check out that webinar, you can hop into the club the next time the club is open. In the last week, I've had folks in my personal life and folks in the club, talk about how their child is so uninterested, so unimpressed with talking about Owls, Watchdogs, and Possum brains. And I think for some folks this feeling is kind of shocking because I think I've kind of maybe unintentionally given the impression that your kids will just totally eat this up. I mean, it is true that the idea of Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums was developed through my work with kids. And I love to conceptualize the nervous system and behaviors this way because I think it is so de-shaming, it is so playful, it is so easy for kids to connect with, and to grasp. And it is for the grownups too. But that doesn't mean it works for everyone. So the first thing I want to say is that this is not uncommon. I have worked with tons of children who absolutely refuse to be self-reflective, think about or talk about their own, Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain or their own activation and arousal levels, which is essentially what we're doing when we talk about their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain, or be reflective on their behaviors, which, whether we're doing that or not, our kids are smart, and they know, that's why we're talking about this stuff, ultimately, is because we're talking about their behaviors. I really want to emphasize that if your kids are reacting poorly to Owl, Watchdog, and Possum language, it's not that you're doing it wrong. And it's also not that it doesn't work. I mean, it's absolutely true that the Owl, Watchdog, and Possum metaphor might not be the best one for your kid. And that's totally okay. Because there are lots of metaphors, lots and lots of ways we can teach kids about their brains and their behaviors and their nervous system. It's also not that your kid is being controlling, or just delights in arguing or always has to be right or is never willing to be cooperative. I mean, those might be accurate descriptions. But that's not the final piece of this puzzle, right? Like your kids aren't just uncooperative? There's a reason for it, right? Remember, regulators connected kids who feel safe, do well, and ‘well’ doesn't mean that they love this Owl, Watchdog, and Possum metaphor, not at all, I mean, ‘well’ would mean that they could maybe express it without freaking out at you or calling you names, or ripping up a bunch of papers or throwing something at you right? 

Robyn: Now, because I used to be a therapist and am not just a parent, I am used to, comfortable with, familiar with, thinking about things like treatment planning, and children's different developmental capacities. And I take an Interpersonal Neurobiology approach to assessment and treatment planning. And I think about different domains of integration and what different behaviors mean with regard to domains of integration. I mean, basically, what I'm saying that I have a lot of practice with that you probably don't if you're not trained as a clinician or therapist, and I want to practice with something that's called clinical reasoning. Now, I went to Google just to be able to give you like a really fast definition of what clinical reasoning is, I seriously just typed in clinical reasoning. And the very first one that popped up, says that clinical reasoning is the process by which clinicians collect cues, process and information, come to an understanding of a patient problem or situation, plan and implement interventions, evaluate outcomes, and reflect on and learn from the process. Okay, that's clinical reasoning. And I literally do this for a living. And of course, you don't, because you're a parent. Oh, I will say if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, or you've read my book, or you've been in the club, you probably actually have developed a clinical reasoning muscle, even without realizing it and certainly without calling it that. I mean, the reason I talk so much about the neuroscience of behavior is essentially to help you flex your clinical reasoning muscles. I mean, I wouldn't call it that exactly. Although, I guess I kind of just did. So after I googled the definition of clinical reasoning so that I could just straight up give you a definition without fumbling over it. I then Googled why clinical reasoning is important. And Google said because it improves client outcomes. Oh, okay, cool. Well, that's great. So, understanding the neurobiology of behavior is important for parents, essentially because it helps us all achieve our goal, right? of regulation, of connection, of felt safety. How can we invite regulation, connection, and felt safety, if we don't have some understanding of the underlying neural biological processes, right? So that's why I spend so much time teaching the theory. If we keep that in mind, and we go back to the question of why are our kids freaking out? When we talk about Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums, or we invite them to reflect on their own inner state and think about their own Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain? We need to then shift into some curiosity about why? Because freaking out, telling you to shut up, saying, “That's so stupid. I hate talking about that. You're so stupid.” Right? Like, all of those things are clear behavioral indicators that your child has shifted away from regulation, connection, or/and felt safety. So the question becomes, why? 

Robyn: Why do some children really hate reflecting on their own inner state to the point where they can become verbally, maybe even physically aggressive? You know, there really is only one reason. And then we can tease apart kind of the sub-reasons underneath that. But all of us refuse to do things because they feel bad. Having attention drawn to, and then often times some sort of, like, overt or more subtle request of the child to then also pay attention to their physiology. It must feel bad if our kids are then kind of freaking out about it. And not just bad, but intolerably bad. I mean, a lot of you are describing to me the fact that being you know, invited to reflect on their own Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brains or pathways is in and of itself inviting– prompting a Watchdog or a Possum reaction, right? It's flipping your kids into protection mode. Okay, why? Alright, so for simplicity's sake, I'm just going to say that being self-reflective is an Owl-brain skill. If you're listening to this podcast, my guess is that you know, a child who doesn't have a very strong Owl brain, who really needs some help growing and strengthening their Owl brain. And also, my guess is that if you have a child who kind of freaks out about being invited or prompted to think about their own Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain, what you have is a child who doesn't have a very strong Owl brain. So it's just my guess. But my guess also is that it's a pretty good guess. So if your kid doesn't have a very strong Owl brain, and you're inviting them to engage in an Owl brain skill or activity, you're in a sense, asking your kid to do something that's beyond their developmental capacity. And that feels bad, people don't like to be asked to do things that they're not capable of doing. So it feels bad, and they break out. That's one explanation that it's essentially inviting your kid to do something that they really can't do. Another explanation here is that many of the kids that I've known– so this might apply to your kid– have learned that any and all attention given to their behavior is coupled with the feeling of shame, That for so long, the only time folks are commenting on or noticing their behavior is to try to stop it to criticize it or they're just generally dysregulated by it. Now, this is not something I'm saying to shame you or the other grownups who are just regulated by your child's dysregulation. I mean, that's just a thing that happens, we're dysregulated by other people's dysregulation, and then we just all develop kind of our ruts and our patterns. And I probably don't know that I've ever worked with a kid, who by the time they came to my office had developed some sense of identity around being a kid with behaviors that other people don't like. And again, because of their developmental capacities, it's very hard for kids to distinguish between, ‘I have behaviors that other people don't like,’ and ‘I am the kind of person that other people don't like.’ Also, making that distinction between self and behavior is also just an Owl brain skill, and kids, by design don't have very strong Owl brains because they're still growing. 

Robyn: So the kids I see in my office very, very, very commonly have learned that attention given to their behavior means shame, or I'm a bad kid. So then when we invite reflection or even just notice our kids through the Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain or pathway language or metaphor, it is kind of instantly evoking this sense of shame, or I'm a bad kid, and then that's, you know, sending our kids down the Watchdog or Possum pathway, and then they're yelling at you telling you to shut up or that you're stupid. Some of your kids have developed very strong protectors that, let's just say they essentially like execute the job of being disconnected from themselves. By design, this is a very brilliant neurobiological protective mechanism the further and further and further we go down the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, which to break the metaphor for a minute means the more and more sympathetically activated we get or the more and more we kind of throw that dorsal vagal brake while we're in protection mode, the less ability we have to be connected to our selves. Owl brain, or a ventral vagal state or feeling safe and connected, is synonymous with connection to self. And for our kids who have spent so long not in their Owl brain, right, they've spent so long on the Watchdog or Possum pathway, they have spent a lot of time practicing being very disconnected from themselves. And they've done this as a protective mechanism because there were so many experiences where being connected to themselves, being connected to their bodies, to their sensations to their feelings– it just felt too bad, right? And so a protective mechanism was to disconnect from self, and then by inviting self-reflection by talking about the Owl, Watchdog, and Possum pathway, we’re really asking that child to kind of lay down their protection and/or to really risk feeling sensations that they have gone to great lengths to disconnect from. There are probably a lot of reasons why some kids are more averse to self-reflection being present with themselves noticing their own feelings and sensations. 

Robyn: The last one I'm going to talk about today in this podcast is that some kids have a really sensitive, let's call it a spidey sense for the fact that you're trying to change them. And this is really tricky because we are trying to change them. And this is literally my job as a therapist was working with people who either came to me because they wanted to change or came to me because their parents wanted them to change. And so as a therapist, there was always this very real tension between the whole point being wanting to change with also the truth that change only comes after full acceptance. Change only comes when there is no agenda to change. I mean, it's just such a complex, energetic place to navigate, right? To completely accept someone while also creating a space that invites the possibility for change, or what I would say an interpersonal neurobiology language is inviting the possibility for integration, but it's still change. No matter how we look at it, it's still change. And the invitation really has to come from this place of, I have no agenda. I'm offering this invitation of safety. But I'm not doing it because I have an agenda of wanting you to change. Y'all that is so tricky for a therapist to embody. I mean, it's so tricky. So it's like bordering on impossible for a parent to embody, I really, really, really get that. My point actually isn't to suggest that you're doing something wrong, or you should try to change that or anything like that. My point is, is that it makes perfect sense, why our kids think that by using Owl, Watchdog, and Possum language, we're trying to change something about them. I mean, it makes perfect sense that they think that it makes perfect sense that you want to change something. Really, what I know about the parents that I work with, is that when you're most in your adult brain, when you're most connected to your authentic regulated self, it's not really about changing your kid's behavior. It's about wanting your child's nervous system to rest, you want them to feel better. And yes, a byproduct of that, often is that their behaviors change. But we spend a lot of time with our dysregulated kids that dysregulate us slightly or a lot. And that means that often, what it comes across is, ‘I want you to change,’ and oftentimes that is true, we want them to change. So that's just a lot of tension for us to hold, right that our truth is, yeah, we want them to change. And also, that it's pretty hard to feel like somebody wants you to change without also feeling like there's something really wrong with you. Okay, neither party is doing something right or wrong. These are just realities. So yeah, it makes some sense that kids might be really opposed to being self-reflective thinking about Owl, Watchdog, and Possuom language, if they can feel a sense, that's what's underneath it is, you know, from their point of view, some manipulation, right, some attempt to get them to change and be different. 

Robyn: Okay, so I just spent, what, 15 minutes going through some of the different reasons why your kid might reject Owl, Watchdog, and Possum language, and they're just ideas. I mean, your kids, you know, situation could be different. But I spent all this time because it improves our clinical reasoning, right? Like, if we can be curious about the ‘why,’ we typically come up with better ideas about how to help, and that typically then leads to better outcomes. So let's talk about that. What are some things we can do if our kids? If you have a child who's really opposed to this language, but also, you really want to help them, one: decouple the shame associated with the different parts of their nervous system and, two: develop some Owl brain self-reflexive capacity, because that's good for humans. Okay, so we can scaffold these experiences, I have a whole episode on scaffolding, you might want to go check it out when this episode is over if you're not quite sure what scaffolding really means. But we can scaffold talking about Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brains. And we can scaffold most effectively if we have good quote-unquote, clinical reasoning and we understand why our child's brain is rejecting it. If your child's brain is rejecting talk about Owl, Watchdog, and Possum language, because it feels bad to have any kind of self-reflection prompted, then we want to really, really back off the invitations for self-reflection. So what that means is to bring Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums into your family culture without maybe talking about it super overtly. You could do this by hanging up some of the graphics around your house. In my play therapy office. I used to have lots of brains, posters, models, wall art, just like a lot of stuff that had to do with brains. And the reason for that– one of the reasons for that was because it really sent this message of like, brains are important here, right? We talk about brains here, we think about brains here, not just behaviors. And that was a very important implicit message to be communicating to the kids in my office without necessarily just saying it outright. So think about that. What are ways that you could create a family culture around talking about– not bad behavior, but talking about hurts, talking about struggles, talking about understanding how regulation connection and felt safety relates to behavior? I also highly recommend talking about other people's Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brains, and so we can do this completely by talking about other people, like maybe strangers when you're out running errands, or when your child is telling you a story about their classmate or their teacher or when you're observing something together. Or when you're recounting a story of something that happened in your day or with your neighbor or with a co-worker, right? We can talk about Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brains. We also can do this with our media, as you're watching TV or movies or reading books or stories. You can pause and reflect on that character’s Owl brain, that character's Watchdog brain, that character’s Possum brain. 

Robyn: One of my favorite children's books to read with kids in my office was called Marvin Gets Mad. So precious, Marvin is a sheep. And he gets really mad when his sheep a friend takes his apple without permission. He thinks she did it on purpose. And he gets so mad. And I would read this book to kids. It's very silly and we could laugh about it. And I would sometimes pause and I'd be like oh my gosh Marvin's Watchdog brain is getting so active his Watchdog brain is getting so in charge, his Owl brain has totally flown away! So you can bring the language into other kinds of experiences without asking them to think about their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain. And now here's the kicker, y'all, you have to resist the urge to shift the conversation around to them. It is so tempting when your kid especially if they seem on board like they're nodding or they're at least not like rejecting the idea or throwing things at you or yelling at you right? They seem like kind of there with you. It's so easy to then take a risk and say something about their Watchdog brain or say something that is just more overtly teaching, our more overtly getting them to think about their own Watchdog brain and then we get the same reaction, right? Big feelings down the Watchdog brain pathway they go. So you really really really have to resist the urge to turn everything into an opportunity to get your child to reflect on their Watchdog brain. Don't think of that as the goal trust that as their Owl brain strengthens and grows they will organically become more self-reflective because that's how the brain works. Kind of have to just trust. 

Robyn: If you're talking about others' Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain, if you're talking about a character’s Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain, or if you're watching a Marvel cartoon and the Hulk comes out and you talk about the Hulk’s Watchdog brain, you just want to do it all very briefly, very casually sort of in passing, don't elaborate again, you're gonna find yourself pulled to kind of turn it into a bit of a discussion or a bit of a lecture or– what's really going to happen is you're going to feel so excited about the possibility of really capitalizing on this opportunity to be connected to your kid and to really grow their Owl brain right you're just enthusiastic about it and you're just so you know, eager to help strengthen their Owl brains so you can feel more connected to them, and I totally get that, and you have to use your Owl brain to kind of put the brakes on that and don't get too over eager. Remind yourself that developmentally keeping things at a distance talking about other people, talking about things in third person, talking about characters that aren't even in real life. And that I mean especially talking about characters that aren't real people, right? All of these are taking steps away from it being personalized and therefore it is creating safety. It also is sending the message that you know everyone has a Watchdog and a Possum brain, it's not just bad kids. It's not just your kid. Everyone has a Watchdog and a Possum brain, you and me, and everyone else. And eventually, you can maybe move into some general observations about your child and their Watchdog or Possum brain. Not going to ask them questions, definitely not gonna make any judgments, just like noticings, just reflections like maybe as they're telling you a story you say something about their Watchdog brain that we don't even want to make good quote-unquote judgments, because like talking about how proud you are of their Owl brain because even that is a judgment even though it's a good one and it's still going to send the message of like I'm trying to change you and we know our kids are super sensitive to that. Your child needs to hear it loud and clear that you don't want to get rid of their Watchdog or Possum brain, okay? They need to hear loud and clear that not only do you not want to get rid of it, that you're grateful for it, that you're compassionate and curious about their overactive Watchdog and Possum brains. And that's something to really remember y'all. You don't want to get rid of your child's Watchdog or Possum brain. I know you don't. It might feel like you do. But you don't. What you want to do is help your child’s Watchdog and Possum brain react to problems based on the actual size of that problem, right? Like your child’s Watchdog and Possum brain are not bad. They're just really overly sensitive. They've very sensitized stress response systems. So they're having Back-Off and Attack-Level Watchdog responses to problems that really only need like a What’s Up Watchdog brain reaction, right? You're not trying to get rid of their Watchdog or their Possum brains and pathways. You want to help even them out. And it's really important that your child hear that in some way, right? That we know that they're Watchdog and Possum brain is just overworked. And it's not because it's bad. It's because it's wonderful. And it's worked so hard to keep your kids alive. And it's also then just very, very tired. You don't want to get rid of their Watchdog and Possum brain, you want to give them more opportunities to rest and play because that's what makes life magical. And also, that Watchdog and Possum brains work better when they're rested. 

Robyn: And I talk about that a lot with kids like when I'm really tired and overworked and when I've been working too hard on something and I tend to make more mistakes because kids will say in some way shape or form that they feel like they need their Watchdog and Possum brain to be this active in order to stay safe. It makes a lot of sense that they feel that way and I look for ways to show that they do need their Watchdog and Possum brains to stay safe. That's why we have them. And actually, as counterintuitive as it feels, overworked Watchdog and Possum brains that are constantly being like, you know, called into action at a very intense level. They're tired, they're overworked, and they actually ultimately end up making more mistakes. Your child's Watchdog and Possum pathways and brains are going to make better choices if they are more rested. 

Robyn: Now, if your child won't talk about Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums, obviously you're gonna get really creative in how you communicate these ideas to them. Again, you're gonna have to talk about yours, other people's, right? Or maybe you're in conversation with someone else, but you know, your child is listening and you can find ways to sneak some of this in, right? Like maybe I'm talking to a friend on the phone and I say something like, “Oh, sometimes I just wished my Watchdog brain would just go away because I feel like it causes me so much trouble. But then I remember that my Watchdog brain is actually so brave and it wants to keep me safe and it doesn't need to go away. I sure would love to help my Watchdog brain rest and play more so that they don't overreact so often. Sometimes overreacting is really hard on me and it's really hard on my friends too, right?” Maybe your child overhears you saying something like that. And yeah, for some of you even that's going to be too much, right? Because even when we don't ask for self-reflection, when we talk in this way, it is still slightly prompting or inviting some self-reflection. And again, even that might be too much. And if it is too much, stop. Focus on Owl brain building in other ways, and I've lots and lots of podcasts on that. Or maybe you just need to find a different metaphor, like maybe the Owl, Watchdog, and Possum metaphor is just not working for your family or for your kid. So many metaphors. That's why I teach you the science, so that if Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums don’t work for you, you understand the science, you can just come up with a metaphor that works for you and your kid. I also really invite you to be curious about how you talk about other people and behaviors just in general. You know, the things your kids are overhearing when you talk about just other people in the world? And what are they learning about your beliefs about people and behaviors because they're definitely going to assume that if you feel or think this way about your friend, or your mother, or your child's teacher or your co-worker, right? They're going to assume you feel that way about them too. And so what do you want them to know about what you believe about behavior, and make sure that that's, you know, a pretty consistent thread that runs through all of your relationships. 

Robyn: I started this podcast today talking about clinical reasoning. I know so weird. But if it feels like none of these ideas I've just given you are helpful. Go back to your clinical reasoning. Self-reflection is an Owl brain skill. It involves either feeling good, like self-reflecting on yourself and feeling good, or it involves feeling bad and tolerating feeling bad. But y'all more than anything when our kids tell us that they can or cannot do something, it is our job to believe them. Your kid can't tolerate reflecting on their Watchdog or Possum brain, believe them. The point isn't to get them to talk about their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain. The point is to de-shame their behavior by helping them develop a relationship with all of the parts of themselves. And if you can remember, some of the time, not all the time, just some of the time that that's the point, you're going to be open to other ways to help your child achieve that goal. Now I know that thinking about your child's Watchdog and Possum brain with compassion and with gratitude that could be really really hard for you right now. And if it's really really hard for you right now you actually might want to pause talking to your child about their Owl, Watchdog, and Possum brain because how you feel about their Watchdog and Possum brain, it really really matters. If you're not feeling very compassionate, curious, or having a lot of gratitude for it, if that's okay, it makes perfect sense that you're not feeling those ways. And that also means it's probably a great idea to pause talking about them. And then spend some time with yourself, connecting to yourself, healing the parts of yourself that really need to be seen and heard and met and known and validated about what's so hard about living with someone with such an overactive Watchdog and Possum brain. And then once you can do that, it will start to be easier to help your child be with their Watchdog and Possum brain with compassion and gratitude and curiosity. 

Robyn: If that's feeling really hard for you right now, there are a few things that I'll suggest. Keep listening to this podcast. Just keep listening, keep pressing play. There are lots of other great podcasts too. Just keep kind of immersing yourself in compassionate resources, resources that help you have compassion for yourself as well. Okay, so just keep pressing play on all the podcast episodes. Consider coming to join us over in the club. That's what we really do in the club is help folks who need connection and co-regulation themselves, so that they can parent their kids the way that they really want to. My colleagues, Melissa, and Lisa wrote a book called Reclaim Compassion. They were guests on the podcast. So I'll put that in the show notes. They take a really compassionate approach to helping parents who are experiencing what they call blocked care. I might call that a really overactive possum response to parenting. It is a book that weaves in some aspects of the Christian faith. So just know that if you go to check out that book, and then of course, I invite you to check out my book Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. It is without question a parenting book, and it's written in a way that really weaves in this compassion for yourself as the parent. Helps to really strengthen your own stress response system, gives you the opportunity to be with yourself in a way that you need so that you could then be with your child in the way that your child needs. So again, if you aren't feeling a lot of compassion and curiosity, gratitude for a child's Watchdog and Possum pathways, I get it. That makes perfect sense. There are a few things that I just recommended that you might want to explore before you spend a lot of time trying to help your kid get to know their Owl, Watchdog, or Possum brain. Alright, y'all. Well, here we are at the end of our time together again! As always, thank you so much for pressing play, for showing up here, for showing up for your kids, for showing up for yourself, for continuing to come back even when things are really really like excruciatingly really hard. I'm so incredibly honored to be invited on this journey with you to play whatever role or part I get to play in helping you develop compassion and gratitude for your own Watchdog and Possum pathway so that ultimately, yeah, we can help our kids love their Watchdog and Possum brains as well. Thank you. I will look so forward to being with y'all again next week. Bye bye!