Dr. Mona Delahooke is an infant and toddler mental health specialist who weaves together the connection between behaviors and the nervous system. In addition to her direct clinical work with families, Dr. Delahooke has dedicated her career to bringing the science of behaviors and the nervous system to educators and parents.

Dr. Delahooke’s third book, Brain Body Parenting: How to Stop Managing Behavior and Start Raising Joyful, Resilient Kids, was released today, March 15, 2022.

Keep Reading or Listen on the Podcast

Brain Body Parenting

Dr. Delahooke takes a transdisciplinary approach to conceptualizing children’s behaviors, which then informs the ways she offers support to that particular child.  She looks at behaviors through the lens of the childs:

  1. Physiology and the different pathways in our autonomic nervous system
  2. Social and emotional development
  3. Unique, individual needs.

This trifecta is the foundation for Brain Body Parenting (as well as her previous book, Beyond Behaviors).

Dr. Delahooke knows I work with kids with the biggest, more challenging, most severe- and what can feel like the most personal (manipulation, control, etc.) behaviors.

We agreed that this brain-body approach applies to all behaviors- even the trickiest ones!  This approach also applies to behaviors that don’t seem particularly dysregulated, such as calculated lying.

The path toward changing behaviors is to focus on the child’s physiology (their autonomic nervous system), their social and emotional development, and their unique needs.

The window never closes for re-wiring hope; for helping a brain predict safety rather than threat.  ~Dr. Delahooke

Connection First? Or not always?

Dr. Delahooke and I talked about how regulation and the autonomic nervous system are the platform that holds connection.  

So many parents are supported to be with their children in ways that are supposed to be connection-building.  Connection is important of course!

But sometimes the ways we are offering connection are difficult for a child to receive because of the state of their physiology.  

Sometimes, those offerings of connection can even be experienced by the child as unsafe or more dysregulating.

We may need to focus on the child’s physiology first and help to bring a sense of safety into their bodies through physiological pathways before focusing intensely on connection.

Sometimes, due to a child’s unique and vulnerable nervous system (for a wide variety of reasons, including sensory processing disorder, a history of trauma etc.,) parents can learn how to titrate the intensity of their offers of connection.

We can also reframe our child’s rejection of connection as not necessarily an attachment issue but as the child’s adaptive response to nervous system overwhelm.  

Find Dr. Delahooke

Dr. Delahooke’s Website: https://monadelahooke.com

Dr. Delahooke on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrMonaDelahooke

Dr. Delahooke on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/monadelahooke/

Dr. Delahooke’s Books

Brain Body Parenting (newly released on March 15, 2022!)

Beyond Behaviors

Social & Emotional Development

Download the podcast transcript here: Brain Body Parenting_TRANSCRIPT

Robyn

Would you like to explore a complete paradigm-shift on how we see behavior? You can watch my F R E E 45(ish) minute-long masterclass on What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It.

Just let me know where to send the links!


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I’m introducing you to one more amazing mom in The Club this week.

This mom has given me the privilege of watching some pretty remarkable transformation happen as she practices being OK with exactly who she is.

And how that matters in her parenting.

I hope you love this special episode.

Many many thanks to my special guest :) And to all the special parents and caregivers in the Club.

If you’d love to join us over in The Club, CLICK HERE.

Robyn

Would you like to explore a complete paradigm-shift on how we see behavior? You can watch my F R E E 45(ish) minute-long masterclass on What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It.

Just let me know where to send the links!


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“I experienced post-adoption depression when my son was adopted as a newborn.  Now he has some behaviors that make it hard for me to parent with compassion.  How do we get out of this stuckness?”

This is such a brave and vulnerable and honest question.  Thank you for trusting as well as trusting all my listeners to hold you and your son’s pain.

Regular podcast listeners won’t be surprised that I start off by talking about self-compassion!  I have some thoughts about the important of everyone processing their grief, as well as how to support this parent’s son is expressing authentic and valid feelings without being hurtful.

In this episode, I mention my free ebook on attachment: https://robyngobbel.com/ebook

Q&A Episodes

Have a question?  Leave me a voice message over at https://robyngobbel.com/podcast

Look for the box that says “Send me a question!”

Hit the button and record your question right on my website.  Easy peasy!

Robyn

Would you like to explore a complete paradigm-shift on how we see behavior? You can watch my F R E E 45(ish) minute-long masterclass on What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It.

Just let me know where to send the links!


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Dr. Katja Rowell is a family physician in Washington State, the author of Conquer Picky Eating for Teens and Adults, Helping Your Child with Extreme Picky Eating, and Love Me, Feed Me.  Dr. Rowell is also the co-founder of Responsive Feeding Pros, an international digital learning platform for professionals working with feeding and eating challenges within a responsive framework.

Responsive Feeding is a feeding model that has been in the academic literature since 2011 and is recommended by American Academy of Pediatrics. 

Dr. Rowell described Responsive Feeding as a model that ultimately helps kids tune into their hunger and fullness cues, while also recognizing and honoring that food is comforting and regulating.  

Responsive Feeding is a model that is both high structure and high nurture, which ultimately allows for a lot of flexibility.  Responsive Feeding prioritizes felt safety; it is never intended to be rigid.  Responsive feeding is about attunement and helping caregivers respond to their child’s cues.

All of this sounds very familiar right?  Attunement, felt-safety, high-structure, high-nurture.

I knew Dr. Rowell would be just the right guest to talk to my audience!

Keep Reading or Listen on the Podcast!

When we feed from a place of anxiety, we aren’t going to have good outcomes. ~Dr. Katja Rowell

We are so lucky to Dr. Rowell’s expertise here on the podcast.  Just a quick reminder that our conversation isn’t offering medical advice!  Dr. Rowell’s whole model is on attunement and knowing your child- not rigidly following advice from someone who has never met your child.  You are your child’s expert!

Picky Eaters

Dr. Rowell’s first suggestion for families who are struggling with picky-eating is to do family style feeding.  This means the child is invited to serve themselves without any cajoling or bribing, and they have the power to choose what and how much they serve themselves, and then what and how much they eat.

Family style feeding can neutralize power-struggles and begin the process toward removing anxiety around food.

But- What About Nutrition?

Of course, parents are worried about nutrition and giving their kids the right amount of food and nutrients they need to be healthy.  Nutrition is important!

But nutrition doesn’t trump felt-safety.  Chronic states of activation due to stress is harmful to our bodies and associated with heart disease, diabetes, and many of the same health challenges that are fueling our stress about food and nutrition.  Felt-safety trumps all!

What About Over-Eating?

The primary goal for kids who struggle with food-preoccupation is to decrease or eliminate the anxiety related to food and feeding. 

For both parents and kids!

It feels very anxiety provoking to have a child who the doctors or growth charts are labeling as overweight. 

Our fat-phobic culture is very judgmental of overweight children (and adults!) and this stresses out parents.

When we are parenting children who struggle with food-preoccupation, we have to do our own inner work to reduce or eliminate our anxiety about having a child in a bigger body. ~Dr. Rowell

Connecting with a Child With Food-Preoccupation

Dr. Rowell’s book, Love Me, Feed Me, outlines a potential approach for connecting with a child with food-preoccupation, understanding that the goals are to eliminate food-related anxiety and help a child begin to connect with their body cues. 

The specifics of this approach go beyond a short podcast interview, but I highly encourage you to read Love Me, Feed Me.  (Dr. Rowell felt a little sheepish about plugging her book but I assured her that y’all want easy to access, easy to read, and easy to understand resources like her book- and it truly is a great book). 

Noticing Ourselves

I was so grateful to connect with Dr. Rowell regarding her thoughts on helping us parents tune into our own bodies.  This just fits right in with everything we talk about here on the Parenting after Trauma Podcast!  

Notice ourselves first.  

Dr. Rowell and I both commiserated that food and feeding is a really hard aspect of parenting.  Parents are getting judgments from the teachers, the doctors, even from their own family about how they feed their child, what they feed their child, and the size of the child’s body.

So much about parenting kids with big, baffling behaviors is about finding ways to stay regulated and connected to ourselves, finding experiences of felt-safety in our own bodies, and making the choices that work the best for our family. Even when we’re being judged by others.  

It’s hard.

You’re doing amazing.

Find Dr. Rowell

Dr. Rowell’s Website: www.thefeedingdoctor.com

Dr. Rowell on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thefeedingdoctor

Dr. Rowell on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katjarowellmd/ and https://www.instagram.com/responsivefeedingpro/

Responsive Feeding Pro (for professionals): https://responsivefeedingpro.com/

White Paper on Responsive Feeding (Values and Practice): CLICK HERE

Article on Healing Food Preoccupation and Trusting Hunger and Fullness

Dr. Rowell’s Books

Love me, Feed Me

Conquer Picky Eating for Teens and Adults

Helping Your Child with Extreme Picky Eating

Robyn

Would you like to explore a complete paradigm-shift on how we see behavior? You can watch my F R E E 45(ish) minute-long masterclass on What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It.

Just let me know where to send the links!


Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Spotify

If you have an idea and most of your colleagues hate it, it might be a good one.

It might even be a great one.  One that changes the trajectory of your field.  And even humanity.

An idea like Attachment theory.

John Bowlby’s idea that children’s development was impacted by how they were cared for was not a popular one. 

He persevered. 

Keep reading or listen on the podcast!

Bowlby offered to the world that each of us has an inborn system that has ultimately been labeled our attachment system.  More than that, it was Bowlby who first suggested that a child’s attachment to caregiver ensures that child’s physical and emotional survival.

Bowlby told us the connection is a biological imperative long before Stephen Porges, MD gave us the science to back that up.

We need connection to survive.  Physically.  First and foremost, out attachment system keeps us alive.

Babies, Bowlby said, are born with the drive to maintain both connection and distance. Togetherness and autonomy.  Ultimately Bowlby came to identify these different drives and how they are expressed, labeling them ‘safe haven’ (behaviors that keep us close) and ‘secure base’ (behaviors that allow for autonomy, curiosity, and exploration). 

Attachment Behaviors

Interestingly, a strong secure base relies upon first having a strong safe haven.

Bowlby noticed that babies have three different attachment behaviors.

  •  They seek, monitor, and maintain proximity to their caregiver. 
    • Babies cry.  They are completely adorable.  They have unique behaviors and features that keep us drawn to them.  Eventually their motor skills develop and they can crawl, creep, walk, and then run toward their caregivers.  We now know from neuroscience that baby’s brains internalize their caregivers.  They literally create patterns of neural firings that represent their caregiver.  As they grow older, they can seek and maintain proximity to their caregiver in their minds. 
  •   They use their attachment figure as their secure base.
    • When a baby’s needs for proximity are met and their nervous systems are repeatedly soothed, their innate and inborn natural desire for learning, curiosity, and exploration opens up.  They begin to explore and return.  Tiny babies do this with their eyes and then their limited motor ability, but of course as babies grow older they crawl away from their caregiver- not just toward.  A baby’s secure base behaviors (explore!!) are supported by the fact that they know their caregiver is there and available.
  • They flee to their caregiver when they are afraid
    • When babies become overwhelmed and aroused, when they have a need they can’t meet themselves whether that’s a physical need or a emotional need (to be soothed!),  they turn back toward their attachment figure- to their safe haven.   These two systems work in harmony (afraid??? Find safety!) to create physical safety and ultimately emotional regulation.

Then Bowlby took this all an additional step further.

As development unfolds and children experiment with behaviors that keep people close, behaviors that allow for their autonomy and curiosity, and how to balance these relational opposites, children also begin to develop and internalize ideas about themselves, others, and the environment.

Hold this thought for a minute because we are going to come back to these internalized ideas but first, we need to look over at Mary Ainsworth.

Mary Ainsworth

Oh Mary Ainsworth.  Ainsworth took Bowlby’s theories and really did the work that was needed in order for attachment to be a part of our every day language. 

Ainsworth, through dedicating her life to science, attachment, parent/child pairs, and keen observation, learned that attachment systems are malleable- they can be shaped.  She taught us that attachment is about a parent’s non-verbal communication and interactions with their babies– it’s not what parents do for their babies, it’s how they do it. 

Ainsworth’s work brought us The Strange Situation- a ground breaking, simple, and short lab experiment that still holds up today and allows us to begin to classify an infant’s attachment to their caregiver.

Through Ainsworth’s work and The Strange Situation, as well as the continued work of the brilliant Mary Main, we now have language to describe attachment behavior. 

  • Secure
  • Insecure
    • Avoidant
    • Anxious
    • Disorganized (added later based on Main’s work)

We also now understand that not only can we categorize attachment based on secure and insecure, we can also categorize it based on organized and disorganized.

  •   Organized
    • Secure
    • Avoidant
    • Anxious
  • Disorganized

You’ll have to keep reading this series as it unfolds if to learn more about secure vs. insecure and organized vs. disorganized. Stay tuned!

Back to Bowlby

For now, let’s go back to Bowlby’s idea that attachment lays the foundation for a child’s ‘inner working model’ about themselves, their caregiver, and the environment.

Bowlby asserted, and decades of attachment research now supports, that a child’s earliest and most repeated experiences in the attachment relationship shape their view of well, basically everything.

Babies who would end up being classified as having secure attachment become children who are confident in themselves, believe they have power and autonomy, believe they are good people even though they sometimes do things that are not good, and believe that generally speaking, other people are good too.

These beliefs about ourselves, the world, and other people ultimately become like a pair of colored glasses we can never take off or even know we are wearing.  They impact how we see and experience everything. 

Attachment and relationships

Now, neuroscience and memory science helps us understand that babies have memory- it’s just that they have memory that’s called implicit as opposed to explicit.  Meaning- babies surely hold onto experiences in a way that help them predict future experiences.  They just don’t have the explicit felt-sense of “Oh!!! I remember!!!”

For example, after having the experience a few times, a baby starts to know that when their caregiver opens the fridge and brings out that one container, it means that they will get to eat soon.  If they’ve had positive experiences with being nurtured and fed, they become physically excited.  Their digestive system begins working to prepare their body for food.  They might move toward their caregiver with delight and anticipation.  All of this happens because they have implicit memory about what that one container means is going to happen next.  They don’t have the felt sense of remembering “Oh!!!  Yesterday what came out of that container was yummy!!!  And when I get fed by my mommy I feel so loved and warned and nurtured and she looks at me with such warm eyes!  I can’t wait for that to happen again!!”

But they do indeed, obviously, remember.  And then anticipate what’s about to happen.

Well, the same is true for attachment and relationships. 

Repeated experiences of being safe, seen, and soothed by their caregiver (or not) creates implicit memory about themselves (I’m good!!!  And adored!!!  My voice has power and helps me get what I need!!!), their caregiver (I can trust grown ups!!  They aren’t perfect but overall they help me get what I need!) and their environment (The world is mostly safe and predictable!!).

This is what Bowlby was talking about when he said attachment leads to a baby’s inner working model.  These repeated attachment experiences lay the foundation for how baby’s experience themselves, other people, and the world.

Free eBook- Brilliance of Attachment

This is part 1 of 6 in a month-long series all about attachment- getting back to the basics.  What is attachment?  What is secure versus insecure?  Why does it matter?  How does attachment develop?  And ultimately then- how do we change it???

You can keep reading on my blog and listening on my podcast.

I’d also love to send you the F R E E eBook I created based on this series.  With the eBook, you’ll have the entire series in one, downloadable PDF you can store on your device, print, and access whenever you want.  It’s beautiful (and it’s not just me that thinks so!  I keep getting emails from folks swooning over the gorgeous design- which I did not do myself!)

Just let me know below the email address where you’d like me to send it!

Robyn

Don’t forget to check out this week’s podcast all about attachment, too!   You can listen to the podcast directly on my website HERE or search for Parenting after Trauma wherever you listen to podcasts- iTunes, Google Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, and more!

The Club will be opening for new members this fall!  Grab your spot on the waiting list now!


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Intro to Bethany

Bethany Saltman is the author of part memoir part biography Strange SituationA Mother’s Journey into the Science of Attachment.  Bethany is a professional researcher, writer, and longtime Zen student who went searching for what she felt was missing when she was a new mom.  I was so honored to interview Bethany for a podcast episode that was released on June 1, 2021.  You can listen to that episode here.

Like myself, Bethany discovered Dr. Sears’ The Baby Book on attachment parenting when she was pregnant with her now 15-year-old daughter and had expectations about what motherhood and parenting was going to look like: a blissful time where she enjoyed the natural awakenings of maternal instinct.

Which did not happen. 

Keep reading or listen on the podcast!

How a Strange Situation was born

Bethany remembers that she wasn’t patient with her daughter.  She didn’t feel very loving toward her.  And ultimately she felt broken because Dr. Sears had promised in his book that attachment parenting was easy because it ‘feeds on a mother’s natural intuition.’  Bethany stated she was doing her best but also doing a lot of things wrong as a mom- and couldn’t figure out why.   

When Bethany’s daughter was about six-months-old, she was given Dr. Dan Siegel’s book Parenting from the Inside Out and “wanted that book out of my house.”  She was overwhelmed with the idea that her daughter could be significantly impacted by her own inner-world.  She couldn’t tolerate the idea that “the darkness inside of me was going to impact my daughter.”  

Eventually, of course, she came to realize she wasn’t broken, there was nothing wrong with her, and that yes, it is really important to look at ‘our own stuff’ when we are parenting.  She took it slow and titrated her exploration into herself and how her own history would impact her parenting (even eventually reading the once banned from her house Parenting from the Inside Out).    How very wise to take it slow and in tolerable doses!

Attachment theory vs Attachment parenting

In the early years of her daughter’s life, Bethany discovered actual attachment theory- not attachment parenting- and the work of Mary Ainsworth, including her landmark research on the science of attachment and The Strange Situation.

Bethany dove into Ainsworth’s work, deeply immersing herself in the history and science of attachment.  While ultimately studying the science of attachment brought her to a place of self-compassion, Bethany initially went through a period where studying attachment actually caused her to mental flog herself even more.  As she learned about attachment she had a time period of believing that not only was she a bad mom but now she had information about all the very specific ways in which she was a bad mom and what the impact was going to be.  

Luckily, Bethany stayed the course and just kept studying attachment science.  She kept wondering and asking herself “is she (her daughter) going to be OK??”  She felt like she needed to understand attachment in a deeply human, embodied way.  

Remember- Bethany isn’t a therapist or a clinician or even in the mental health or psychology field.  She veraciously studied attachment theory, got herself interviews with some of the leading researchers in the field, and got trained in both The Strange Situation– the laboratory experiment that enables researchers to study and code infant attachment, and The Adult Attachment experiment– an interview that enables researchers to study and code adult attachment. 

Her book, Strange Situation, is a memoir about this journey and exploration.

It was a lovely, gorgeous book.  I read it quickly- like, couldn’t put it down and carried it around with me quickly.

“In order for us to see our children we have to see.”

I asked Bethany if she remembered the moment when she realized that if she wanted to parent her daughter in the way that she wanted that she was going to have to look more closely at herself.

Delight and Secure Attachment

There wasn’t a watershed moment but what she does remember is learning about how important delight is in secure attachment.  Ainsworth talked about how in order to have delight in your child- a crucial ingredient in secure attachment- you need to have delight in your life.   Bethany started prioritizing experiencing and enjoying moments of delight as well as having more compassion for herself.  

I loved hearing Bethany talk about the importance of delight because I feel the same way!!!!  My colleague Marshall and I prioritize delight in how we offer therapy that is steeped in attachment.  If you’ve trained with Marshall and I, you know this!

Bethany was just so clear- if we want to offer our kids delight we have to experience moments of delight in our own lives.  To give delight, we must experience delight.  It’s not selfish!!!

Back to Mary Ainsworth.  Bethany discovered and explored the work of Ainsworth in possibly more depth than anyone ever has.  She was able to access Ainsworth’s journals, her initial writings, and like I mentioned, even became trained in The Strange Situation and The Adult Attachment Interview!

Y’all, training in The Strange Situation and The Adult Attachment Interview is hard!  It’s tedious, it’s a firehose of information, they are loooooong days.  I haven’t trained in either myself (The Strange Situation is a week long training and the Adult Attachment Interview is two weeks!) and to imagine going into either without my background as a clinician who is already pretty well steeped in attachment sounds completely overwhelming.

And Bethany said, “I’ve never been happier.”

Live a life of delight!

Ultimately Bethany reflected on how this tenacious deep-dive into attachment theory and Ainsworth’s work has left her with a lot of compassion for herself.  She’s doing the best she can, just like everyone else.  Beating yourself up, she says, is not going to make yourself a better mom.

We can’t be violent ourselves and expect to emerge as a more gentle, wonderful, light-filled parent.  We have to cultivate those qualities in our own hearts.

She said “It’s like wanting to live in a blue house and continuing to paint it green- over and over and over again.  If you want to live in a blue house, you need to paint it blue.” 

YES.  Live what you want!  You want to give your child delight?  Live a life of delight!  You want your child to grown up a curious and compassionate person?  Live a curious and compassionate life.

YES!!!!

What does it mean to be a mom? What does it meant to be happy? Content? Loving?

Bethany’s exploration into the science attachment led her to conclusion that behaviors have actually very little to do with attachment. There isn’t a checklist.  Raising a child with secure attachment isn’t about breastfeeding or co-sleeping. 

It has to do with how you think and feel about our attachments and how this is transmitted from mind to mind, generation to generation.  

Bethany ends our conversation with Permission Granted.  Go out and live in a place of delight.  Have compassion for yourself.  You don’t have to go looking for permission for delight, compassion and rest.  You can give yourself that permission.  

Go find Bethany on Instagram @Bethany_Saltman and explore all the cool things she is offering at www.BethanySaltman.com.  The paperback of Strange Situation was released in April.

Bethany and I share a similar drive- to translate the science of attachment and make it easily accessible to everyone.  Strange Situation is a gift to the world.  It’s a lyrical story and an easy read that highlights the amazing work of Mary Ainsworth while bringing compassion to every parent who reads it.  

Robyn

Free eBook- Brilliance of Attachment

This podcast is part of my series all about attachment.  In the coming weeks, we’ll be getting back to the basics.  What is attachment?  What is secure versus insecure?  Why does it matter?  How does attachment develop?  And ultimately then- how do we change it???

You can keep reading on my blog and listening on my podcast (click the ‘next’ button to go to the next blog/podcast in the series!)

I’d also love to send you the F R E E eBook I created based on this series.  With the eBook, you’ll have the entire series in one, downloadable PDF you can store on your device, print, and access whenever you want.  It’s beautiful (and it’s not just me that thinks so!  I keep getting emails from folks swooning over the gorgeous design- which I did not do myself!)

Just let me know below the email address where you’d like me to send it!