When Your Child’s Behavior Doesn’t Change, This Can Help {EP 75}

Robyn: Hey, y'all, it's me, Robyn, and you've tuned in to a special episode of the Parenting After Trauma podcast. I have something really special to share with you today. You're going to get to listen in on a conversation with a mom who is a member of The Club. It's interesting because as I'm preparing to upload this episode into the podcast, I’m noticing that I'm having kind of some mixed feelings about sharing this interview with y'all today. It was just so incredible, like such an honor. To sit with this mom and to hear her story and to be trusted with her truths, that there's a part of me that wants to just hold that vulnerability really close to my heart and not even share it with you. I'm really just so, so honored that she wants to share this vulnerability with you. She wants you to hear her story. This mom is honest, right off the bat that she knows there's no magic answer to changing her kids behavior. In fact, this mom is really working on accepting the truth that her child is likely going to always have a lot of struggles with regulation and then behavior. Not because her kid is a bad kid or because she's a bad mom. But just because all of us humans are different. Right? Like some of us have eyes that struggle. Some of us have ears that struggle like me. I'm totally stone deaf in one ear, like I'm missing a acoustic nerve in my right ear. And, and, some of us have autonomic nervous systems that struggle. Anyway, I'm going to just press play and let this interview unfold for you. Thank you so much for being a part of my community and this mom's community by listening to this podcast. And for just, like, showing up with your whole heart so that this mom can show up with her whole heart. And she can feel, just really witnessed and seen and known. And maybe a portion of her story will also allow you to feel really seen and known. All right, here we go.

Robyn: Thank you so much for just giving up some of your time this afternoon to connect with me and then to connect with everybody who's listening. So thank you. 

The Club Mom: Oh, thank you. I'm honored to be here. 

Robyn: It's fun to have a nice little one on one chat with you finally. Yeah!

Club Mom: Yeah.

Robyn: So tell us just a little bit about you. And you know, what maybe drew you to The Club, which- what feels like is useful about it. 

Club Mom: Okay, yeah, yeah. So, as is true of probably most everybody who is listening to you, I am parenting a child with- who lives basically in a state of chronic dysregulation with a lot of those big baffling behaviors that you regularly talk about. And we've been at this for about a decade. And it's exhausting. And it's isolating. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Club Mom: And I think that is one of the huge reasons why, as soon as I heard about that you were creating The Club, that my interest was immediately piqued because, in spite of the you know, the exhaustion, the overwhelm everything that's part of the reality, of parenting a child from a hard place who who has a lot of struggles and life is very complex for her and hence for our entire family. There is that, just that, deep longing I think to be seen. To be known. To be heard. But in a safe way. Like, I can't just go share my story with anybody. And honestly, in our situation, when we are out in public places, our child tends to internalize. And so we can look pretty pulled together out in public. Which is, you know, I'm grateful for that. And yet at the same time, it can further add to the isolation. 

Robyn: Yes. 

Club Mom: And so, I was at a point where I was getting ready to get back into therapy for myself. Just for support as far as like, what does it mean to live with a child who, just to be totally honest, a lot of times, I don't like. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Club Mom: And then that can spill over into, like, really being disappointed in my own life. And not liking my life. And not wanting to get up in the morning. And like, okay, it's my job. I'm the adult here. It's my job to get the support that I need. And I just kept thinking, you know, I've been in therapy in the past and kept thinking, so- some knowledge of how that can work, and just kept thinking, ‘how is the therapist going to support me through this?’. And I'm like, yep. They're, they're going to be able to, you know, listen, validate, remind me about self care. They absolutely will offer something. But I just kept thinking, ‘oh, that will take so many words to explain to them. And at the end of the day, they won't fully get it’. Which, they don't need to. You know, somebody can help you without fully getting it. But I think there was just that deep longing for like, ‘I want to be able to connect with other people who do get it’. 

Robyn: Yeah.

Club Mom: ‘Without really needing to say barely anything at all’.

Robyn: Right.

Club Mom: And so I just, you know, I knew about The Club, I followed your work for quite some time, listened to all of your podcasts. And it was just one of those moments where it's like, ‘alright, I'm gonna get on a waitlist, and it's next time The Club opens, I'm gonna join’. And I think I felt like, ‘what do I have to lose?’. You know what I mean? Like, let me just jump in and try. And I knew that it was set up in a way that would protect confidentiality, and the confidentiality of my child would be respected. And so I was also excited because I've listened to your- you know, your podcast, and read- your read your blog posts, and all of that, I thought, oh, I'd love to, like, get like- the next level with Robyn and her team and so. So I joined and have absolutely not been disappointed. I think, and beyond that, not just not been disappointed. But it's been amazing, it's been so supportive for me as an individual. And that's what I was looking for. I think- and I'm guessing a lot of parents can relate to this, there comes a point, when you don't need one more thing to do to try to, like, change your parenting or fix your child, I mean, that would be great. [indistinguishable conversation] Like, you need to be- like I as a parent need to be seen, understood, felt, connect with other people, and be able to as- as you say, what you offer is that co-regulation. [indistinguishable] I can offer that to my child, especially when you just get so worn down, you know. When it's year after year, day after day, you know, hour after hour. Like you can know all the things and yet, it's still so hard to just keep doing it. And I'm like, I need to. I need to connect with other people who just get it. And that is- that is totally been my experience. And it has- it's really kind of crazy to feel seen and known by a group of people that I've never met, probably never will meet. [indistinguishable] Support each other and I mean, I think about these people, even just at random moments of the day. [indistinguishable] You know, this person is going through this or I wonder how they're- how they're doing now. Or just maybe an idea that they've shared on the forum that I'm like, ‘oh, I'm gonna apply that now’. And- and in doing that, know that, like, there's somebody else out there, like, I'm not alone, I'm not alone. And I just have also found, I think, one of the things that's been amazing is to be part of a group- because I'm part of other groups on Facebook, that are meant for parents- maybe parents who’ve adopted or kids with developmental delays. Whatever- you know, like all- there's, there's a lot of groups out there. And so many of them can turn into, just basically it feels like, a venting session or parents jumping in and trying to help each other and kind of, honestly, steering each other in the wrong direction at times where you just [indistinguishable] And so I think one of the added benefits to me of being in this group is your involvement. Not only the teaching, but just your actual involvement in the forum discussions. And knowing that like, okay, Robyn’s- Robyn’s weighing in here with some advice and responses. And that just- and maybe it's just me being type A, but like that makes me feel way better. Both about [indistinguishable] right now. And I'm also very excited about what it means for where this group of people is headed. Because as we walk through this journey together, we are learning together, staying anchored together, being grounded. And not just- I would say, it's not just a matter of surviving the journey together, it's learning how to not work harder. But work smarter, is a huge thing. Like I can't do any more. I can't give any more than I got. But it's like, can I think [indistinguishable] about this. And I know that's one of the biggest things- almost said huge things, that's one of the biggest things [indistinguishable] of your work and your teaching is the power of thinking differently. Like- like, what you said- like how you see people, changes people. And how I see myself changes me. And I feel like this group gives us the opportunity to actually practice that. And not just keep it at the head level and the knowledge level, which sometimes podcasts can be. It’s like, this is just me hearing and then me hoping I remember to apply it at the right time. But then when you, you know, come into something like what The Club is set up to do, you can bring those principles and truths into real life. Moment by moment settings and just walk each other through some of the like, the harder and the yucky. And I feel like that's where the rubber meets the road. And that's where it goes from just like ‘yeah, I know all this stuff’ to like, ‘oh, little by little, I can see gradual transformation, and at least how I'm thinking’. And at the end of the day, that's the only thing that we can control.

Club Mom: One of your podcasts that stood out to me the most and resonated with me the most, I think, it was months ago that I heard it. And you talked about, I won't be able to say it exactly right. But basically, that- for a lot of these families, I think we were talking about how you work with therapists and therapists call you and say what do I do? What do I do? This person is struggling and this child struggling and we're not- we're not getting anywhere. For so many of these families, and I would put myself in this category, life is probably going to stay pretty hard. There's probably not going to be some like, oh my goodness, we got the right medication. And now I’m parenting a different child. Or we got the right combination of psychotherapy and occupational therapy and boom! Like, life is easy now. You know, like, that’s probably not our reality. And so just learning to be able to better understand myself, and have compassion towards myself, and compassion towards my child can help make a huge difference, regardless of the outcome- is where I was headed with that. Like, I can't predict the outcome for my child. Nobody can. But this journey matters. And this is the one life I've got. And I don't want it to be lived in complete misery and desperation over the reality of how hard it is to parent a child where there are significant, and often unsafe, behaviors. So.

Robyn: Yeah, well now I want to stop because it was- I mean, so honest, so vulnerable, so brave. And also, I am having this, like, ‘that's exactly what I wanted to create’ experience of. Like- just- I mean- well, first of all, it really is really profound to have somebody reflect back to you (and you being me) this moment. Like, oh, these things that I do matter, right? Like, even if we'd never met and you'd never joined The Club, like the things that I toss out into the world matters. So I am just having a moment of like, thank you for, like, serving that back to me. Because I need to be seen too, just like everybody else does, and it helps me keep going. Right? And I when I think about how many other people who will never joinThe Club and I'll never meet but maybe have that same impact that you- you know, you said you did about that podcast episode. Okay, I can keep doing this. I can keep doing this and we're all just gonna keep doing it together. 

Club Mom: Yeah, yeah.

Robyn: So thank you for that. But just- yeah, I was just like, I had this idea. And I was like, I think we can make this work if we're very thoughtful about it and just not wanting it to turn into another Facebook forum that can just like- the wheels can just fall off the track easily. And wanting it- but wanting it to be also not this like sunshine, and rainbows, and unicorns places either, because that's not helpful either. Right? Like, I want people to say what we all know, we're all thinking, which is like, sometimes I don't like this person. 

Club Mom: Yeah, yeah. 

Robyn: Like, it's all- like everybody's feeling it. Let's just put words to it. Can we say it and be honest about it, and then not feel shame? 

Club Mom: Right. 

Robyn: About it and not be judged about it. So that then we can move on? Like moving on meaning, ‘okay, this is our reality. So what do we do about it next?’. 

Club Mom: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, I remember recently in the form of a parent sharing, that they felt like they were tolerating their child. And that just so deeply resonated with me. You know, you can- you- you do- care- you love your child, you're committed to them. But in real life, that like daily survival, can often feel like my best is tolerating. And that yeah, that is difficult. That's very difficult. I have found- there's just a couple of things I just wanted to share about my experiences in The Club and one of them is that-  I think this is a general life principle about when you come into a space, and you want to support other people, and be there for them. It's very grounding to me. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Club Mom: So as I tried to come alongside and just, you know, be that listening space, or, umm. Yeah. See somebody you know, and actually help them know, that they're being seen, and they're being heard. It reminds me of all of the things we might not even talk about some of the principles of, you know- of this. I'm not sure what you call it, the, you know, therapeutic parenting, parenting after trauma, whatever you- whatever you call this, you know, parenting with connection. But it- it does, at a very deep level, remind me of some of the truths that I want to be grounded in. For- for instance, like, you know, connection is a biological imperative. For that, you know, no behavior is maladaptive. Like those things, like I reminded at a deep level by coming into a space where I might just think, Oh, I'm here for this other person, but at the end of the day, I'm better for it. Like, so that has been, you know, a great- a great side benefit of being in The Club. Another thing has been, being able to see where people are at in their journey, different- different parts of the journey. Some people you could tell, they're just just starting out, and you know, as they share about their, you know, their frustration, or like, ‘oh, I've just totally lost it with my child’. And- and why- why do they have to be doing this, and just, you know, sharing honestly. And as I look at that, I think, ‘oh, my goodness, a few years ago, like that's- that was just like, happening all day long for me, those thoughts and those frustrations’. And now, life has not been made perfect. My child has not been completely healed. But there's a moment in my day where it's like, I'm able to think differently about my child. And remember that my child is not giving me a problem, my child is having a problem. You know, how do I join with them, rather than end up fighting against them and fighting against myself, for that matter? But so it can remind me both- both there's, you know, scenarios where I'm like, ‘oh, I'm encouraged’, because I wouldn't have been able to tell you that I've made any progress. I wouldn't. But I remember at one of the meetings, I don't remember, it was one of the teachings that you were doing for The Club. And it was like, my huge takeaway from that night, you said, very, very rarely are we not making progress. 

Robyn: Yeah. 

Club Mom: And it so- but it's so often feels like we're not. We're in the same place. And sometimes you just need to like, step back. And when you hear someone else's story, you know, without- without any judgment, you're just able to say- see, like, ‘oh, okay, there has been some transformation in me, and maybe even in my child’. And then on the other side of that spectrum, seeing people share stories where you're just like, ‘oh, wow, that is brilliant, how you responded’, or like, the compassion, the endurance, just the things where you think ‘I never would think that I would be able to get to that point in my parenting journey’, but hearing somebody who's, you know, going through the same thing, walking along the same path. To hear them share some of those things gives me hope for continued transformation along this journey. So yeah, so many- so many helpful things about being part of this type of community.

Robyn: I love that part as well. Like the fact that we're all in these different spaces, and sometimes, as like the group leader, some of that can start to mildly dysregulate me of like, ‘oh, here's somebody who's struggling so badly’ and- or intensely when I like- I just mean a lot. A ton of struggle. And how do we support them? How do we help them? What's- What's everybody else kind of thinking or feeling about this? Because we've got other people in totally different parts of the- of the- you know, their journey? 

Club Mom: Yep!

Robyn: And something I've- I've known but have- but embodied more myself in this- in the past year plus in The Club is that like, the pause is so important. Like if I just pause and be like, ‘well, let's just see what's going to happen next’. And then I watch, you know, somebody come in and say just the most simple but profound thing like, ‘I totally hear you’ or ‘your thoughts just- you get to come here and say these things’, right? Like nobody's judging parents who sometimes are showing up and like- like, really dysregulated themselves, right? Like, our kids are dysregulated so then we're really dysregulated. 

Club Mom: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Robyn: We show up that way, and maybe show up in ways that, at times, we even can almost regret. Like, ‘oops, that wasn't my best self that I brought into that space’. 

Club Mom: Right? Right.

Robyn: But over time, we start to realize, and you know what, that's okay. Like, it was okay that I brought- like- not my best self. Because everybody says like, even not your best self gets to come and we’ll love that part of you, and will take care of that part of you, and with the trust-. I mean, I think that's what I'm constantly so amazed by the parents who have shown up in The Club is like, the trust in that-. Like the trust and each other is just inherent goodness. And no matter what we’re they're doing, or saying, like there's just this way that we're all trusting, like, we're all good. We're all good humans. We're all here for the same reason. And- and sometimes we show up with our own messy parts, too. 

Club Mom: Right, right. 

Robyn: And there's never any judgment about that. And sometimes that was like, the most mind blowing part for me. Yeah.

Club Mom: Yeah, I think another thing- and I don't think I've mentioned this yet, and I do definitely want to share this part. That I often find that just knowing that this group exists, and that I'm part of this group is regulating to me. And does help provide some stability in those really rocky moments, of which there are many. There was one specific time a few weeks ago, where my child was really struggling, and there was screaming, and thrashing, and throwing things, and threatening. And at the same time, she also was expressing desire to be physically close to me, which is not typical. Usually, it's- you know, she's not wanting closeness in those times. But she was in this moment. And I was having, really like a physical reaction to that. Because historically speaking, I had a lot of good reason to know, like, it could be very unsafe for me to be close to you right now. So there's that like, battle of like, ‘oh boy, oh, boy, my body's telling me, this isn't safe. But- but you are saying you want to come close’. And I knew that a couple hours from that time, I was going to be able to be part of one of the Connect & Co-Regulate or Co-Regulate & Connect parent groups where we're just, you know, gonna come together, and hear each other, and be there for each other. And just knowing that allowed me, I think, to tap into some of the- some of the things that I would not otherwise have been able to tap into. And I ended up being able to- to hold my daughter and I was, speaking of tapping. I was like, tapping on her and kind of like, rocking her and tapping her. And I just kept thinking of like, ‘okay, rhythmic, repetitive, relational, like, this is what she needs right now’. And at the same time- and I'm gonna get what I need in a couple years. 

Robyn: Yes! Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. That's what she needs and then- what you need really matters too! And knowing that there's a place that those can kind of co- kind of coexist. [sighs]

Club Mom: Yeah, yeah. Because in that moment, like, I feel like- I love to be authentic. And I didn't feel authentic, like, holding my child and tapping on her back and rocking here. I felt like, no, actually, I don't want to be in a space with you.

Robyn: Yes.

Club Mom: And I don't feel safe with you. And I'm- I'm doing this like, almost out of obligation. And that's just a yucky feeling. Like when we go into parenting, we start our parenting journey, that is not what we're envisioning, or hoping for. And I- I actually have older children that I have parented and had a very different experience with and so I actually know what it's like to have some of those healthier, reciprocal, give and take experiences with your child. And I know what it means to sacrifice for a child, I get that. But this is just a very, very different set of needs and relationship. And- and so there's something in me, who's you know, wants to honor that like authenticity and be like, I'm not going to- and also safety. And so- so you know, it's like, ‘oh, I'm not going to do this’. And yet just knowing like, ‘okay, I'm not the only parent in this situation’. There are a group of us who are journeying, these just very sticky situations, to put it lightly, together, allowed me to be like, ‘no, right now, in this moment, I can do this’. My brain is telling me ‘be careful, be careful, you might not be safe’. But like, another part of my brain is like, ‘no, right now I am safe enough, I can do this. And I'm going to honor my needs and my experience, by coming together with- with this group of people this afternoon to- to connect. To co-regulate’. And knowing that, just knowing that helped me to regulate in that moment. Like I never would have been able to respond, I want to say that well, to my child if it wasn't for that space being held for me. 

Robyn: Yes. Oh, like, seriously, for the rest of my life, I will remember, like- this is gonna keep me going. Like, the way you can articulate this truth for you. Which is like- I really was like, ‘can I do this? Like, can I do this in a virtual format? Can I create something with people all over the world, break down walls, of like, office walls’, you know?

Club Mom: Right. 

Robyn: Can- because it's- we're not helping enough people. Like, that's where I was. I was like, we are not helping enough people. There's people out there who need exactly what you're saying- like with my therapist hat on, I'd say it'd be able to internalize the co-regulation of other people. And that's what therapy is. Like, that's what I'm doing in a therapy- you know- or what I was doing in the therapy space was, you know, the people that were coming to see me were beginning to internalize my co-regulation. And the grown ups were doing that with me and their kids. And I was just having this like, ‘there's got to be a better way to make this available to more people’. 

Club Mom: Yeah. 

Robyn: I don't know if there is, but we're going to try. And then to hear you is put like- into such clear words. Seriously, like, this will keep me going forever, that like no. We're doing it like,

Club Mom: Yeah, yeah!

Robyn: The internalization of people you've never met in real life. That can help you get through a really hard moment. While also- you know, I'm hearing you say- it's not like you turned into a different human in that moment, all of a sudden was like, ‘I feel totally safe and welcoming my toddlers’. But you know, like, you're still noticing, like, this is hard. I don't like how this feels. But you also- I'm not hearing you say like you were judging yourself for that or being real critical of yourself. You're just like, This just is what it is. 

Club Mom: Exactly. 

Robyn: Later, I'm gonna go get what I need, because my needs are just as valid as this child's. Yeah, it's just a shift- It's not her responsibility to meet those needs for you. Right?

Club Mom: Right, right. 

Robyn: Like, that doesn't mean your needs aren't met. Like your need for connection in a reciprocal relationship, even with our kids, is valid. It's human. Like, if you didn't have that need, you wouldn't- like doesn't make sense. You do have a need for reciprocity in your relationship with your child. 

Club Mom: Yeah. 

Robyn: It's just- also your responsibility to say like, ‘ah, I'm not getting it. So I have to go get it somewhere else’. Right. 

Club Mom: Right. Right. 

Robyn: And that's hard. Yeah. 

Club Mom: Yeah. So jumping back to your question of like, ‘can I even create this in a virtual way? Can I create this community in a virtual way?’. I can only speak from my own experience. But for me, I actually find it easier to access this in a virtual format. Because if you asked me to come into a room in real life, and sit down with people who I had never met before. But probably you know, we're bringing all sorts of- all sorts of things with them into the room, you know, that their- their energy, their- their needs, their stories, like. Not knowing, like, in this group who's going to maybe like, need to, like, talk for the whole hour or? I don't know, I would just have so much anxiety over that. I- I wouldn't come. I just wouldn't. I’d be like ‘it's too late. I'm too tired. I can't do this’. It would feel too risky. I can't explain all the reasons, I'm sure there's like psychologists who are breaking this all down especially in this you know, COVID world that we live in. But there's something about just coming in the comfort of my home, in front of my computer that feels- feels quite safer. And I mean, I guess- I've never done this, I've never felt like I needed to. But the reality is, and I'm sure all of us know this deep down, like, if I need to walk away I can, and nobody’s going to judge me. 

Robyn: Yeah, exactly! Exactly, yeah.

Club Mom: Like, for that matter if my child starts screaming and needs me, you know, I can just mute my- you know, I can turn off my video, I can mute the sound and like I can care for them. So honestly, I mean, I know this probably happened for you, the way that you created it was- was obviously very influenced by being in a worldwide pandemic. And yes, there's such, I think, huge benefits of this format. Number one, that it can reach people all around the world, like, I know, one time I was in a meeting and somebody, I think they were like, ‘yeah, I'm from Australia’, you know? And like, oh! Nice to meet you. Cool to hang out with you. I'm like, Yeah, well, you wouldn't be in my face to face group, if I happened to have the privilege of you know, having a local-. Which, you know, you'd think about piece. What local? I'd have to drive hours to be with three or four other people who are in this situation. And yes, the way The Club is set up, makes it just like instant access to- to this. So.

Robyn: Yes. And I- so yes, breaking down those barriers. I mean, we saw that in- I have- I haven't done any therapy in like two and a half years. So I haven't done therapy in the pandemic, but I support a therapists who are doing therapy. And they were reporting things like it has, you know, going virtual has made clients that I would have called like, resistant, all of a sudden, they're not resistant anymore. Well, what really happens is that the barriers were- were taken down, right? That instead of having to get in the car and drive this length of time, and you know, just the energy that it takes. It's like, no. We're just clicking a button. 

Club Mom: Yeah. 

Robyn: And there you are. And I can click the button again, if I need to tap out, like if something happens, like this is too much. I can mute.

Club Mom: Right. 

Robyn: And of course, we're really clear in The Club that's like, you've come for what you need today. If you're here, just listening, awesome. If you're here to talk the whole time, awesome. The next time, you know who didn't get to talk, we'll be able to talk. Like we’re all just trusting we're all getting what we need. 

Club Mom: Yeah!

Robyn: One thing I did, I was pretty sure was going to be true and has become true, for sure, is the fact that there's this- the forum attached to it like an- in addition to the live meetings. What I really wanted about the forum was a place where people can touch in and touch out whenever they need to. You know? Because that- that always really baffled me about being a therapist, it's like- and being in therapy myself. It's like, wait a minute, just because I put Monday at 5pm on my calendar, that's the day that- every all the stars are going to align for me. And I'm going to feel connected to myself, and connected to my therapist, and safe enough, and like to really- be it- make- make- quote unquote, use of that hour? Like, how often does that happen? 

Club Mom: Right.

Robyn: And the reality is is a lot of times it doesn't. But when we have a space where we can go to when we need something, you know, when- even if it's just reading. And we're not even participating or just like- these ways. And this- this is what Dr. Bruce Perry talks about too. Is having these moments of healing. And that they're on our own terms. Like my nervous system is ready to reach out and get something, or give something in it can do it. As opposed to like, Well, my appointments not till- or that our support group is not for three weeks at 6pm.

Club Mom: Right.

Robyn: You know? And I have found that part to be so valuable. That like, touch and go, come and go as you please. 

Club Mom: Yes. Yes.

Robyn: As you need. And then we're learning to trust ourselves and what we need. 

Club Mom: Mm hmm. Nevermind the fact that a lot of times, our greatest need is this- are during those time periods of weekends, nights, and vacations. Where we wouldn't have a therapy appointment, right? There's no therapy, there's no therapist available for our child or ourselves. There's not the structure of school, there's just- you know, and that's we most need it. And guess what? The forum is live and active then. Like you come on at 2am and, you know, share what you need to. Or that Saturday morning. Or that Christmas- Christmas Day. I remember Christmas, a lot of processing and a group after that. Or people just like, ‘am I the only one who just can't wait for this day to be over?’. And to be able to be there for each other in those times when, really any other support is just- aren't available. So I think that is another huge blessing of the way this is set up. I think just one thing that I would- would want to say to anybody who's considering being part of it and just thinks like, ‘oh, I wouldn't be able to- you know, I don't feel like I could share anything about my story’. Or ‘that's just not me, I don't want to get part of- be a part of those dialogues or whatever. That- you say this a lot, that lurkers are always welcome. 

Robyn: Yes.

Club Mom: And I feel like there would be so much benefit to somebody who, even if they, at least in the beginning, didn't share anything at all, or rarely said anything, or never commented. I could just picture- with the variety of conversations that are happening on the forum, and the things that are being shared. That just them reading through those things- when- when they need to, when they have time, when it resonates with them, would be very supportive for them. And very- very regulating for them with only a very minimal amount of effort on their part. 

Robyn:  Yep.

Club Mom: So I would just want people to know like, that really- is I think- all of us know that. All of us, who are members of The Club and who are contributing, and who are having these conversations know. This is- you know- yes, this is a conversation between me and this person. But you know, it's open to whoever, and if anybody can be helped by that, like, we're here for it. So.

Robyn: Yeah, I agree. I mean, that- that absolutely was done with intention, because that has made a big impact in my life. Like before I could receive truths about myself. Like, ‘there's nothing wrong with me’, ‘I'm doing the very best that I can’, like ‘I am as worthy of self compassion as everyone else’. Like before I could believe that about myself, I had to watch it in action with other people. I had- I just- it was almost like this distance, like this level of safety. Of like, I can watch that happen over there. But I can't quite yet take it in for me yet. And so I think about that, even when I'm responding to people in the forum, like I think about, like, all the people who are reading and hearing me, you know. We work so hard to be so compassionate, while, not to mention, everybody else who's responding is just overflows with compassion. But I really think about all the people who don't participate, but just read. And ultimate- there- there comes a point where, we have to almost have this internal reckoning of like. Listen, if everybody else is worthy of this level of kindness and compassion, I- I must be too, right? 

Club Mom: Right, right. Yeah.

Robyn: And so for people who aren't ready- I mean, it is actually very vulnerable to receive kindness and compassion. It's super vulnerable, and some people just aren't ready for that yet. And to watch it get exchanged authentically, that's I think the crux of it. Is that-

Club Mom: Right.

Robyn: -there's a way of knowing like, ‘oh, we're not just in here like sun- again, sunshine and rainbows, and like, making everybody feel good. That is absolutely- that's not the point of the forum at all. Yet, everybody's just so kind and compassionate to one another. To- to bring those two pieces together. Again, there's ultimately a time where all of us have this moment of like, ‘oh, I guess that applies to me, too. I guess there's nothing wrong with me too. I guess I'm a good parent, too. Even though I do these things’. Or ’even though I think these things’.

Club Mom: Right

Robyn: I think about the quote unquote lurkers all the time. The people who I know are just scrolling, and never writing or- you know, saying much. Like, those people are on my mind all the time. And I'm so glad that they're at least just touching in, and reading, and seeing.

Club Mom: Right, right. Yeah. And that may just be all they have time or energy for. But I think a lot of really important work is happening even through- through that level of interaction. 

Robyn: Yeah. Well, this has just been so delightful for me. One, again, just to have some one on one time with you has been really fun. To have a little accurate reflection myself, has been really fun. And also, just to imagine, you know that there's probably somewhere- somebody out there who is going to consider maybe taking a risk and coming and receiving. And then like you said, giving. The giving part is, I mean, people have known that groups need to give and receive since the dawn of time.

Club Mom: Right

Robyn: I didn't come up with that. But it is a very intentional part of The Club. That we are here to give, when we can. And receive, when we need.

Club Mom: Right

Robyn: And both are very important parts of this journey. 

Club Mom: Yeah. 

Robyn: So for, you know, everyone listening. If- if anybody's been impacted- to- to feel like, ‘ooh, I might risk that, and I might go see if I can get what I need from that group’. I’m just so, so grateful for you, sharing all-.

Club Mom: Well, I'm grateful for you and excited to continue my journey in The Club. 

Robyn: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. 

Club Mom: You're welcome.