Creating Brave Spaces with Selma Bacevac {EP 87}


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Selma Bacevac is a psychotherapist, author, and coach who specializes in helping Balkan women and parents heal from trauma and anxiety.  Selma has expertise in attachment and parent-child relationships.  We met due to our previous shared interest in working with adoptive families. In the past couple years, Selma has followed her passion to focus on serving Balkan families.  

Selma’s family fled Bosnia due to war and ethnic genocide during the early 1990s.  She now lives and practices in Florida. Prior to his death in the summer of 2020, Selma’s father inspired her to take her focus on attachment and the parent/child relationship and bring those ideas to Balkan families.  

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Brave Space

Selma emphasizes developing brave spaces with her clients.  Beyond safety, brave spaces are spaces in relationship where we can welcome difference and connection at the same time.  In the parent/child relationship, a brave space invites the child to have their own voice.

Brave spaces recognize that we are all searching for the same thing: to be seen and to experience connection.  Brave spaces can still be scary, but bravery invites presence. Selma works with parents to create and step into these brave spaces with their children, but also with their own parents.  

It’s not individuals who need to be fixed- it’s the relationship.

Relational ruptures can invite strength after repair, both in the relationship, and in the brain.

Adem and the Magic Fenjer

Selma was inspired to write her children’s book, Adem and the Magic Fenjer, when looking for ways to help her son understand their family’s history.  Selma was six years-old when the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  She lived through the siege of Sarajevo and escaped through the Tunnel of Hope when she was nine years-old.  

Selma reflected on how the book has created the opportunity for not just the son to know her family’s story, but for every reader to get to know her family’s story. 

Adem and the Magic Fenjer is a children’s book especially for the families who became refugees in the Bosnian war but will resonate with any family who has experienced war, displacement, and living in the diaspora.  

Seeing Refugees

Selma emphasized that there are a lot of refugees in the world- 64 million!  Refugees have had their mental health impacted due to living in constant survival mode. Their needs are important and deserve to be seen and met. Refugees are highlighted in the immediacy of a war, but then are quickly forgotten about. Selma is passionate about helping the world maintain a focus on the needs of refugees.

Wars breakout because we don’t feel safe.  We can bring safety to the world by strengthening parent/child relationships.  

Connect more with Selma

https://www.balkanmamatherapy.com/

Selma has an amazing Instagram Account.  Follow it! https://www.instagram.com/balkanmamatherapy/

Adem and Magic Fenjer

Listen on the Podcast

This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.

Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.

Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’

Robyn

/by

Ableism, Parenting, and Trauma Informed Care {EP 85}


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Marshall Lyles is a therapist, author, poet, trainer, advocate, and thought-leader.  Mostly though, he is a dear friend. 

I asked Marshall to come on the podcast to talk about disability, ableism, and parenting kids with vulnerable nervous systems. 

I couldn’t possibly capture the beauty of my conversation with Marshall in a short summary.  This is an episode you absolutely want to listen to in order to get the full impact.  If you have barriers to listening to the podcast, scroll down to click and read the full transcript.  

Disability

I asked Marshall to get us started by defining disability.  

The unnecessary experience of isolation and struggle resulting from an uninspired world’s lack of empathic forethought. – Marshall Lyles

Marshall emphasized that a disability can be visible or invisible, and it can impact the body, mind or both.  

So many of the children I work with have what Eileen Devine calls a “brain-based disability with behavioral symptoms.”  

This brain-based disability could be due to trauma, a neuroimmune disorder, in-utero alcohol exposure, neurodivergence, or some other circumstance that has led to vulnerability in the nervous system.  

Impairment versus Disability

Are all impairments a disability?  For example- I am completely, 100% deaf in my right ear.  It’s an impairment for sure, but it has never felt like a disability.  When I asked Marshall about the difference between an impairment and a disability, he replied with “Is there a part of you that the world has not thought to welcome? Then that becomes a disability.”

He also emphasized that if the world was inclusive, most impairments would never move to the social category of being a disability. 

Ableism

Ableism is keeping the world most convenient for people whose bodies and minds operate like yours, fueled by the fear that your own body and mind will inevitably change in ways you like to pretend isn’t real. – Marshall Lyles

Let’s contextualize ableism when speaking specifically about kids with big, baffling behaviors with this question- in what ways do we as adults (in parenting, or in education, or in any system that involves children) work to make the world most convenient for ourselves, insisting on conformity to systems that were created by preferencing neurotypical nervous systems?

Ableism, for me, shows up when we ask the most vulnerable person in the room (the child with a vulnerable nervous system) to make the hardest adjustment and accommodations so that they can be OK inside a world and with expectations that weren’t created with them in mind.  

Ableism and Big, Baffling Behaviors

I’ve had to do a lot of soul-searching these past few years, looking inward and asking myself when my work as a therapist preferenced helping the adults, not the children, by trying to get the children to change.  

Even the movement away from behaviorism and toward co-regulation and nervous system health is, in many ways, still rooted in ableism.  In many ways, the focus on co-regulation has become another path toward getting someone to act the way we want them to.

I appreciated so much how Marshall clarified what true co-regulation is.  

Co-regulation is about asking ‘What do you need in this moment?’ not ‘How do I shape you into some preconceived socially accepted version of yourself?’ 

Trauma Informed Care and Ableism

Regrettably, in many systems, Trauma Informed Care has become about understanding and accommodating the impact of trauma so that people with a history of trauma will act like the people who don’t have trauma.

This paradigm- getting people with a history of trauma to act like people who don’t- forces us to overlook the brilliance of trauma adaptations.  A sensitized nervous system is a brilliant way for a nervous system to adapt to living in a world that is traumatic.  

I asked Marshall: “How do we get to the point where we can understand the impact of trauma and the brilliance of the adaptations that the nervous system has made, while also recognizing that those adaptations have come with great cost?”

We agreed that there is no answer to that question, but that isn’t an excuse to stop asking the question.  We need the humility and bravery to show up every day and ask that question even if there is never an answer.

What if, Marshall asked, we stopped focusing on the symptoms and instead focused on meeting the needs that were originally violated, neglected, or misused?

I wonder how we might change if we were willing to love the parts of people that kept them alive? – Marshall Lyles

Ableism and Advocacy

This podcast conversation was largely Marshall and me asking big, unanswerable questions.  When our kids are struggling, how do we know when we are supposed to simply offer co-regulation and presence through the struggle versus using our power as parents to lessen or change their struggle?

When our kids are struggling, whether that’s at home or at school, when is it time to step in and acknowledge that perhaps our kids are having a very reasonable reaction to being inside a system that has expectations for them that are absurd?  So often, the grown-ups in a system, just keep insisting “Sorry, this is the system!  Figure it out!”

When do we shift into advocacy? 

Honestly, I think the answer to this question is very uncomfortable for me because then I have to come face-to-face with all the times I’ve focused my energy on helping people cope with a system instead of using my energy to advocate for system change.  

I know that sometimes I parent out of ways that are making my life easier in the moment as opposed to staying focused on what my child needs to be his truest self, and to be seen as his truest self, in that moment. I’d like to think I don’t do that very often, but I probably do more often than I realize.  

What If Change Isn’t the Point?

Marshall and I wrapped up our conversation by asking what would happen if we stopped looking at the symptoms of PTSD as something that had to change.  What would be different if we stopped asking “How do we get rid of the symptoms of PTSD?”

We agreed that everything would be different.  And it would still be possible- even likely- that the PTSD symptoms would alleviate, bringing deserved relief to that individual.  

Connect more with Marshall

https://www.marshalllyles.com/

The Workshop (more than a training space for healers) https://therapistsworkshop.com/

Marshall’s Miniatures https://therapistsworkshop.com/collections

Listen on the Podcast

This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.

Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.

Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’

Robyn

/by

Focus on the Nervous System to Change Behavior {EP 84}


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Behavior is just what we see on the outside that tells us about what’s happening on the inside.

If we want to change behavior, we have to change what’s driving the behavior.

This approach to behavior change rests on the idea that regulated, connected kids who feel safe behave well.  If you’re curious about how I came to that conclusion, you can watch my free masterclass and download the free eBook on What Behavior Really Is.

How many times have you felt confused because of conflicting parenting advice?

Or how often has good parenting advice worked- but only some of the time?

That’s because parenting advice is aimed at stopping a behavior. But…

Behavior is Just the Symptom

When someone asks me how to stop lying, or stealing, or opposition, or aggression, or ignoring, or almost anything! I can’t even begin to answer until I understand the level of activation or energy coming from the nervous system that is driving the behavior.

There’s a lot of complex neuroscience we could turn to help us understand- and then change if needed- behavior things like polyvagal theory, affect regulation theory, and state dependent functioning theory.  If you want to dive deep into the science, the theories, the brain, and the nervous system, consider the Professional Immersion Program {formerly Being With}, my year long immersion program for professionals.

But for today, we’re gonna skip the theories and just go right to the metaphor that over the years, hundreds of kids and their parents helped me develop.  

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Owls, Watchdogs, and Possums- OH MY!

There’s three different energy pathways in the brain. I call them the Owl Brain, the Watchdog Brain and the Possum Brain.

The Owl Brain

The wise Owl Brain is in charge when the brain and nervous system is feeling safe and open for connection.  

The kind of behavior that you’re hoping to see from your child- and yourself- comes from the owl brain.  You don’t need to stop behavior- you need to bring back the owl brain.

The Watchdog Brain

When the nervous system detects possible danger, it flips into protection mode and the watchdog brain emerges.  I turn to Dr. Bruce Perry’s state dependent functioning for help conceptualizing different levels of watchdog brain behavior.  Dr. Perry identifies four different levels of activation- alert, alarm, fear, and terror.  

The watchdog is scared- but acts scary.  So scary that the owl freaks out and flies away!  This is why logic isn’t helpful and why previous consequences don’t seem to matter. 

The Possum Brain

There’s one final pathway to explore.  When the nervous system detects not just danger but potential life threat, it engages what I call the possum pathway.  Again, we can look at Dr. Perry’s state dependent functioning to see how there are different levels of possum brain behavior- alert, alarm, fear, and terror.

The watchdog pathway increases activation but the possum pathway decreases it. As the possum brain gets more and more scared, it shuts down more and more.  

Felt Safety is the #1 Goal

Regardless of how activated the watchdog or possum brain is, the number one goal is to offer felt safety.  See the behavior as a behavior of protection! 

Each level of watchdog or possum is going to respond differently to different interventions. The alert watchdog and the terror watchdog need different things.   

Changing How you See Behavior Changes Behavior

Believe it or not, even though it seems like I haven’t given you any specific intervention, I actually have!  Just shifting your perspective on behavior is an intervention.  

But I also know that’s not enough.  So! I have a few options for you.  

You can head to robyngobbel.com/podcast and use the search bar to find previous episodes that relate to the specific problem you need help on.

If you need even more support than that, come join us in The Club.  

And, if you work with parents you can see if my year long immersion program, the Professional Immersion Program {formerly Being With} is right for you. The Immersion Program equips you with the science, the tools, and the regulation for yourself so you can work with the families with kids with the biggest watchdog and possum brain behaviors. The Immersion Program graduates receive licensing rights to teach my parent course to your clients and in your community- which means soon, parents all over the world will have access to professionals who can help them with alllll sorts of confusing watchdog and possum brain behavior!

Download my free ebook, What Behavior Really Is and How to Change It, to read about owls, watchdogs, and possums. The ebook also includes some really helpful visuals that I think make it all make even more sense.  

Listen on the Podcast

This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.

Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.

Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’

Robyn

/by

How To Change People Pleasing Behavior {EP 83}


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People pleasing is different from cooperation. 

Cooperation = connection, no loss of autonomy, requires frustration tolerance

People Pleasing = abandoning self because it is too scary or uncomfortable to regulate through the rupture in the relationship.  

People pleasing is a stress-response. It’s a behavior that the “Trickster” possum uses when the possum pathway is activated.  

If you aren’t sure what I mean by possum pathway, check out this podcast/blog: https://robyngobbel.com/possumbrain

I also describe the owl, watchdog, and possum brain in my free eBook, What Behavior Really Is, which you can download HERE.  

Some folks call this people-pleasing behavior “fawn.”

I call this “trickster” behavior.  

Keep reading or listen on the podcast!

The Trickster Possum

The trickster possum is tricky for a lot of reasons.  He’s kinda a chameleon, always trying to guess which mask he should wear to stay safe. 

Sometimes this behavior is extra tricky because the trickster possum can seem like he’s regulated and in the owl brain.  It’s pretty easy to overlook the distress that’s driving this behavior because it’s behavior that isn’t rocking the boat. 

How to Change People Pleasing Behavior

The #1 step is to do exactly what we just did- recognize it as distress.

The people pleaser trickster possum been a people pleaser for so long that they might have a hard time even knowing who they are or what they like.  

We can help these kids discover themselves!

Give this child a lot of opportunity to express themselves.  If it’s safe, say yes.  Purple hair? Yes! Mismatched clothes? Yes! 12 ponytails? Yes! 

If they express a food preference, honor it.  Don’t like green beans?  Don’t have to eat them.  

We want these kids to have experiences where they learn: “I am me, my feelings and preferences are valid, and I can express them without repercussion.”

Your trickster possum signed up for soccer then decides they hate it?  It’s OK to quit.  You aren’t focused on teaching trickster possums that sometimes they have to commit and do things they don’t want to do because trickster possums are always doing things they don’t want to do.

Become a Sportscaster

People pleasing possums might need help even know what they like!  You can help by narrating what you see.

“You wear those leggings every day- you must like something about them.  Are they soft? Warm?”

“I notice when we have mac and cheese, you ask for seconds.  When we have spaghetti with meat sauce, there’s usually some left on your plate. I wonder if you like mac and cheese more?”

Teach them It’s OK to have Preferences that are Different

People pleasers have a had time tolerating the uncomfortable feelings of being different.  Teach your people pleaser that it’s OK to be different, even if that means other people have upset or negative feelings.  

“You really like Peppa Pig.  Your brother likes Paw Patrol.  I notice you both watch way more Paw Patrol than Peppa Pig.  Next, let’s watch Peppa Pig.  Your brother can watch with us or he can take a break and play something else.  Either is fine.”

Are you accidentally enforcing people-pleasing behavior?

I’m a people pleaser, so I try to be on the look-out for times I’m accidentally teaching my son that he needs to be a people pleaser, too.  I am clear with him that he can have preferences that are different than mine.  He doesn’t have to like the same food, or clothes, or extracurricular activities.  He can voice those opinions, even when he knows they will frustrate me.  It’s my job to manage my frustration. He doesn’t have to like food simply because I cooked it for him, and he doesn’t have to like a chore simply because it has to be done.  

“It’s OK to not like meatloaf, it’s not OK to be rude.” or

“I notice you are looking at that meatloaf kinda warily.  Give it a bite, if you don’t like it, we can talk about our options.”  

“I would rather do fun things than do chores, too.  It’s totally cool that you hate emptying the dishwasher.  Maybe if you emptied it while listening to music, that would help?”

Listen on the Podcast

This blog is a short summary of a longer episode on the Parenting after Trauma podcast.

Find the Parenting after Trauma podcast on Apple Podcast, Google, Spotify, or in your favorite podcast app.

Or, you can read the entire transcript of the episode by scrolling down and clicking ‘transcript.’

Robyn

/by

Lacy Alana with Hope: Even When Things Seem Hopeless {EP 25}


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Lacy Alana beautifully reminds us that we don’t have to be perfect.  Our messiness can meet each other’s messiness.  We can welcome our kids’ messiness, and find the strength to keep welcoming it…even when it seems like nothing is working.

Lacy is a therapist, program developer, trapeze artist, and improv genius who comes to the podcast as an adult who understands childhood trauma because she experienced childhood trauma, including being a youth who was in out-of-home care as a teenager.  Lacy wanted to come on as a person who offers hope for all the parents and professionals out there walking this hard path of caring for a child impacted by trauma.

Find Lacy and all the amazing work she is doing in the world at www.YesAndBrain.com.

Robyn

/by

Mark Vatsaas Helps Parents Feel Seen and Heard {EP 16}


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It’s hard to write a summary of this episode because it is so rich with goodness.

Mark Vatsaas is a dad and parent coach for parents of kids with challenging behaviors.  He’s compassionate, clear, articulate, and has a knack for seeing straight through to the heart of the manner (that’s my observation of him!!)

There are so many brilliant sound bytes in this episode.  It’s long but you are going to want to listen to the whole thing.

Keep Reading or Listen on the Podcast

Mark gives us a peek into his process as a parent coach and describes how he often sees these four themes emerge in his work with struggling parents:
1. Attachment and our drive for survival
2. How our emotions help us navigate our world
3. Defendedness
4. How parents show up- and specifically how they send cues of safety and connection to their children

There are a few tears, some laughter, and by the end you will understand by Mark’s business is called Seen and Heard.  Just listening to this episode will help you feel both seen and heard.  Promise.

To learn more about Mark’s work, head to www.SeenandHeard.coach.  He offers a free 90 minute consultation for parents- no obligation to schedule any additional sessions.

Robyn

/by

Scaffolding is a Form of Co-Regulation {EP 82}


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What does my child need for their success to be inevitable?

If I wanted to paint the top of a 20 foot wall, I’d rent some scaffolding.  Scaffolding makes the floor higher and would get me as close to the top of the wall as I needed.  

The scaffolding would help make my success inevitable.  It’s not the only thing I need to be successful (paint would come in handy!), but it’s a really important piece.  

In parenting, scaffolding is the support that we put in place that allows our children to be successful.  Then, slowly, thoughtful, and sequentially, we decrease the amount of external support needed as our children develop that capacity to be successful on their own.

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We Scaffold Everything for our Kids

Eating (liquids, to solids, to forks).

Riding a bike.

Doing homework independently. 

Cleaning their room and doing chores.

Driving.  

But we also scaffold skills like playing nicely with friends, sharing, and not taking things that don’t belong to you.

When our toddler takes something from the coffee table and breaks it, it’s because they needed more supervision.

Supervision is a Form of Scaffolding

Toddlers don’t have a ‘pause’ before exploring.  They don’t understand ownership and have no concept of ‘that doesn’t belong to me.’

If a toddler takes and breaks something, we know we didn’t toddler-proof well enough.  

If our older kids are continually struggling at something that seems like a basic skill, like playing with their sibling without hitting or not taking things that don’t belong to them, they need more scaffolding.

There are a lot of complex skills involved in playing cooperatively with another child or resisting the temptation to take something you want.  

Supervision is Scaffolding and Co-Regulation

We wouldn’t leave four toddlers to play in a room alone together like we would with four ten-year-olds.  They don’t have the brain development to play safely without the supervision (which is co-regulation) from an adult.  

So, we can scaffold those skills because scaffolding is another form of co-regulation.  

Parents Need Scaffolding, Too

When I’m struggling to parent in the way I want to, I need help.  I need a friend or professional to break down the steps.  

Let’s say you really want to get better at making repairs and apologizing to your child, but you didn’t experience a lot of repairs when you were a child so it feels very uncomfortable and vulnerable.  So vulnerable, you just can’t seem to force yourself to make that repair.

One of the most important reasons to make a repair is that repairs help our kids feel seen.  They teach our kids that relationships can survive tough stuff.  

What other ways can you help your kid know you see them and the pain of rupture even if you just can’t force yourself to make an in-person apology?

Scaffold a Repair

You could send a text!

You could ask your partner to come with you for co-regulation yourself!

You could ask the members of The Club for encouraging words that you can ‘bring with you in your mind’ while you make the repair with your child.

When your child receives your repair, even if it’s not face to face, they feel seen. They learn relationships can survive tough stuff.

The scaffolding allows you to practice the level of vulnerability you can tolerate!

Decrease the Scaffolding

The key piece here is that in scaffolding, you withdraw the supports as you grow in your capacity to make the apology.  Maybe after a couple apology texts, you’ll have developed the ability to regulate through the vulnerable feelings and make the apology in person.

Just like your kid, you need scaffolding and co-regulation when doing hard things.  In a way, that’s exactly what the parents in The Club do for each other.

This way of parenting with connection and co-regulation is hard!!!  It’s vulnerable and risky and we are taking a huge leap of faith.  

We need scaffolding and we need more co-regulation.  

Be Scaffolded by The Club

In June 2022, The Club will be doing a whole month focused on scaffolding.  We’ll have an in-depth scaffolding masterclass and we’ll brainstorm how to do scaffolding in your home with your child with your specific and unique circumstances.

The Club will be open for new members May 31- June 6!  Come join us.

If you’re reading this after June 6, you can join the next time The Club opens and you’ll be able to access the video recording in the On Demand Video Library (along with over 45 other videos).  

Changing How We See People Changes People

We aren’t totally in control of our child’s success but we can absolutely strengthen the scaffolding.  When we see challenging behaviors about not having the skills or regulation to be successful, we see our kids in totally new ways.  We feel less stressed and can come up with better ways to help.

See you next week!

Robyn

/by

What Does Co-Regulation Really Look Like? {EP 81}


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There’s a lot of confusion about what co-regulation really is.  Parents often say to me something like “OK, I get it- I’m supposed to give co-regulation instead of a consequence.  But- what does that really mean?  Like- what does co-regulation actually look like in real life?”

What Is Regulation

Before we really define co-regulation, let’s define regulation.  Regulation is about balance.  The thermostat in my house regulates the temperature, right? The thermostat keeps track of the temperature- it monitors it.  When the temperature reaches a certain data-point, it tells the air conditioner or the heat to kick on so that the temperature will change back to the desired set point.  

The thermostat monitors the temperature and then works together with the heating or air conditioning to change the temperature when needed.

Regulation of Energy and Activation

When I talk about regulation, I’m talking about the regulation of the energy and arousal in our autonomic nervous system.  

Our autonomic nervous system has an accelerator and a brake.  Regulation simply means that the accelerator and brake of our autonomic nervous system is in balance and that there is an ability to both monitor that energy and arousal and change it, if needed.

Autonomic Regulation

A lot of our body’s regulation is autonomic.  It happens without us thinking about it.  When I’m exercising, my autonomic nervous system notices that I need more energy so it increases my heart rate, respiration, and probably a million other things that help me fuel a workout but I don’t really know about because I’m a social worker not an exercise scientist.  

Usually when the people that I know are talking about regulation, they are talking about how the autonomic nervous system fuels the energy and arousal that is underneath emotional expression.

How Regulation Develops

A lot of the autonomic nervous system develops in utero and continues to get strengthened and refined in infancy.

Think of it this way.  Healthy full term infants have a lot of ability to regulate their heart rate right?  But they are still developing regulation of their body temperature (we have to help by bundling them up for a while!) and they are definitely still developing emotion regulation, right?  Babies are great at crying- not so great at soothing.

Regulation is developed through Co-Regulation

A regulated adult offers soothing to an infant because infants are still developing regulation.  That doesn’t mean the infant is still developing a calm level of arousal right?  Infants can be calm.  What they struggle with is moving back and forth between activation and rest.  

When an infant is expressing activation by crying, they need a caregiver to soothe them.

That’s co-regulation.

Two people coming together.  One is regulated. 

Breaking it Down Even Further

I think to understand co-regulation it’s helpful to get even more granular about the co-regulation that occurs between a caregiver and an infant.

There’s two people.

The baby experiences some activation in their nervous system and can’t modify that activation- meaning they can’t bring it down- without help.

To help soothe the infant, the caregiver doesn’t just stay calm. 

The first thing that happens with the caregiver is that they experience enough activation in their own nervous system that allows them to match the baby.

There’s a little burst of “OH! The baby is crying!”  

For a brief moment, the baby and the caregiver are in sync with their level of activation. 

The caregiver then regulates their own activation because if you’ve ever tried to calm down a crying baby while you are super activated, you know it definitely does not work.

The caregiver brings their activation down so that they can energetically lend their de-activation to the baby. 

The caregiver is actually able to do both.  They are able to stay slightly activated in a way that matches and resonates with the baby, while also offering soothing.  The caregiver can keep a foot in both places.  The place of “I feel you I’m here with you in this activated place” and a foot in the place of “I can soothe myself and soothe you, too.” 

The Dance of Co-Regulation

If you’ve ever soothed a baby, you know that this process is not a straight line.  Caregivers don’t pick up their crying baby and then the baby soothes and it’s over. 

Nope.  There’s a little dance involved! 

Meaning- the caregiver responds to the baby.  The baby responds to the caregiver.  And then the caregiver responds to that.  Then the baby responds, and the caregiver responds to that. 

There’s a mostly unconscious dance that is sometimes in sync and sometimes not.  But the key here is there is what’s called mutual influence.  The caregiver responds to the baby.  The baby responds to the caregiver.  The next move can’t be predetermined because it’s based on what’s going to happen next- and that’s unknown until it happens. 

That’s co-regulation.  The continued presence and attunement of the dance. 

The Ingredients of Co-Regulation

We’ve already established that there are two people involved in co-regulation and one is more regulated than the other. 

But what else?

Physical Proximity

You can’t co-regulate a baby from another floor of the house.  Or even another room.  There is physical proximity and the closer you get to the baby the easier it is to offer co-regulation. 

Attunement

The caregiver allows the baby’s emotional distress to resonate in their own body and responds to that.  

Matching the Energy

In co-regulation, baby’s energy is first matched but by a regulated caregiver. 

Sure, sometimes caregivers end up joining the baby’s dysregulated state instead of the other way around.  Because we can co-dysregulate as well as co-regulate.  But when all is going well, the caregiver can match the baby’s energy while remaining regulated. 

Remember regulated doesn’t exactly mean calm.  It means that the caregiver has the ability to stay in balance. Regulated people are connected to themselves without getting flooded by someone else’s energy.  They are mindfully aware and present. 

They aren’t necessarily calm or happy or anything like that. 

What about older kids?

How do we co-regulate older kids? Or even our partners?

Well, first there’s some proximity.  For kids who have developmentally delayed self-regulation, they need more proximity to the regulated caregiver.  We can’t co-regulate a baby from another floor of the house and if your teen is delayed in the development of self-regulation, you can’t co-regulate them from afar either. 

The first thing I look for in kids with dysregulated behaviors is how far are they from regulated adults and for how often?  Where are they sitting in the classroom?  Are the behavior problems happening at recess when there is no regulated adult in proximity.  Or lunch time?  Or on the bus? 

Then of course if we’re going to decrease the distance to an adult or caregiver, that adult or caregiver has to be mostly regulated themselves.  

To offer co-regulation, the adult’s nervous system is experiencing felt-safety and able to resonate with the child’s intensity without getting flooded by it. 

Then the adult matches the child’s intensity and activation- while also maintaining a connection to their own grounded and present self. 

Then the adult participates in the dance.  This is where I can’t tell you what to do because I have no idea what the next step in the dance is.  What I can teach you is how to grow in your regulated, mindful presence with yourself so that you can stay very present and attuned during that dance. 

And you won’t give up the dance when there is a misstep.  You’ll just keep going. 

Real Life Now

OK enough metaphor.

Here’s a story of co-regulation.

It’s time to leave somewhere your kid doesn’t want to leave. 

Your kid expresses their distress.  Maybe they ignore you or run off or scream “No, I’m not going!” Maybe they just start to cry, hard.  Or throw the shovel they were digging with at you.  There’s an infinite number of ways kids express their distress. 

You resonate with the distress first without trying to change it! 

“OH!  You do NOT want to go!  It seems like are so mad (or sad) that it’s time to go.  It’s so hard when the fun times are over.” 

If you’re real lucky, your child will immediately sync up with the dance and agree.  

“Yes! I don’t want to go! I was having fun!”

Now you’re in sync and you can continue the dance of matching and attunement.  What will almost certainly happen is that the child’s level of activation will slowly start to lower. 

You’ll stay present and attuned and notice when you and your child are connected enough that you can now focus back on the problem- it’s time to leave. 

“It’s so hard to leave.  It is time to go home.  I’ll be disappointed with you while you say goodbye to your friends and we get into the car.  I have a drink all ready for you in there- I knew you’d be thirsty after all this playing!” 

I know I know.  Your kid doesn’t fall into that co-regulated dance quite so easily.  You might have to spend a lot more time matching their energy before they sync up.  Kids with vulnerable nervous systems, and especially kids with disorganization in their attachment history, sometimes give very confusing cues.  

Sometimes we can even feel like our kid doesn’t want to be regulated- like they are staying dysregulated on purpose.

I get that.  If that’s your kid, check out the Attachment Series.  The whole series will be helpful but perhaps the section on disorganized attachment will be most helpful. 

Kids with insecure attachment are hoping for co-regulation but expecting more dysregulation.  This conflict between their hope and expectation can cause some really confusing behaviors so it’s helpful to understand those behaviors as well stay confident that the nervous system always wants to move toward regulation.  Even your child’s.  Promise.  

Co-Regulation Doesn’t Have to Involve Words

In fact, the more dysregulated your child is, the fewer the words you want to use.

Have you ever tried to connect with an angry child who screams at you to shut up?

Maybe you’re wondering- what am I supposed to do?  I’m supposed to connect and co-regulate with this person!  How can you attune and match the energy if you can’t use words??

I promise you- you can attune and match the energy without using any words.  You can sit still, with energy in your body that is present, matched, and regulated, and not say anything.

When my own son goes over a dysregulation tipping point, I know I can’t say anything.  Period.  I want to because sometimes he says things that are simply untrue and I feel defensive.  But words are pointless.  Unless the words sound like “would you like a drink or a snack?”  

Matching the energy doesn’t have to have words or gestures or actions.  We hold energy in our bodies.  Match the energy and then maybe offer a gesture of connection and co-regulation- like a drink or a snack. 

Passive Vs. Active Co-Regulation

So far, I’ve described active co-regulation.  The regulated adult is doing something to offer co-regulation to the dysregulated other.

Co-Regulation can feel a lot like doing, but it’s really so much more about being, right?

Most co-regulation doesn’t involve doing at all.  It’s the kind of co-regulation that is happening constantly between two people without us evening thinking about it.

Like a heartbeat.  It’s just always happening.

When my son is doing homework at the kitchen bar but I’m not actively involved, in fact I might not really be paying attention to him at all, co-regulation is still happening.  In fact, he is much more successful at staying on task and having frustration tolerance when he does homework in proximity of me or my husband- even though we rarely have to actively co-regulate him anymore.

Passive co-regulation is why our kids tend to behave better when we are nearby.  It can feel like our kids only behave well when we are supervising them or the risk of consequence is higher because we are watching.  

It’s really about the passive co-regulation that’s happening due to proximity.  The passive co-regulation allows our children’s owl brain to stay more engaged, which is where cause and effect thinking, frustration tolerance, and cooperation all live.

I have a whole other podcast/blog all about how easy it is to label our kids unable to be trusted when we aren’t directly supervising but really what’s happening is that our kids need our passive co-regulation in order to stay regulated and connected to their owl brain.  You can check out that podcast HERE.  

Co-Regulation is Hard to Describe with Words

There’s only so much we can do in a blog or podcast to describe co-regulation.  Co-regulation is a little easier to understand if we can observe it (if you’re a Club member, I’m creating a ‘bank’ of co-regulation videos so you can see co-regulation in action).  

Co-regulation is best understood when you can feel it, experience it, and embody it.  Both the giving and the receiving of co-regulation. It’s one of the primary tenets of The Club.  I wanted to create a space where the caregivers could both give and receive the co-regulation that they want to give their kids.  The Club also supports parents while they practice (and mess up!!!) co-regulation with their kids.  It’s so hard and really calls for a lot of tenacity and persistence to keep trying.  

Learning about something like co-regulation in a podcast can help demystify it enough that it feels safe to practice it. 

Let me know in the comments if co-regulation feels a little more clear now!

Robyn

/by

Strange Situation with Bethany Saltman {EP 33}


Listen on Apple Podcasts Listen on Spotify

Intro to Bethany

Bethany Saltman is the author of part memoir part biography Strange Situation– A Mother’s Journey into the Science of Attachment.  Bethany is a professional researcher, writer, and longtime Zen student who went searching for what she felt was missing when she was a new mom.  I was so honored to interview Bethany for a podcast episode that was released on June 1, 2021.  You can listen to that episode here.

Like myself, Bethany discovered Dr. Sears’ The Baby Book on attachment parenting when she was pregnant with her now 15-year-old daughter and had expectations about what motherhood and parenting was going to look like: a blissful time where she enjoyed the natural awakenings of maternal instinct.

Which did not happen. 

Keep reading or listen on the podcast!

How a Strange Situation was born

Bethany remembers that she wasn’t patient with her daughter.  She didn’t feel very loving toward her.  And ultimately she felt broken because Dr. Sears had promised in his book that attachment parenting was easy because it ‘feeds on a mother’s natural intuition.’  Bethany stated she was doing her best but also doing a lot of things wrong as a mom- and couldn’t figure out why.   

When Bethany’s daughter was about six-months-old, she was given Dr. Dan Siegel’s book Parenting from the Inside Out and “wanted that book out of my house.”  She was overwhelmed with the idea that her daughter could be significantly impacted by her own inner-world.  She couldn’t tolerate the idea that “the darkness inside of me was going to impact my daughter.”  

Eventually, of course, she came to realize she wasn’t broken, there was nothing wrong with her, and that yes, it is really important to look at ‘our own stuff’ when we are parenting.  She took it slow and titrated her exploration into herself and how her own history would impact her parenting (even eventually reading the once banned from her house Parenting from the Inside Out).    How very wise to take it slow and in tolerable doses!

Attachment theory vs Attachment parenting

In the early years of her daughter’s life, Bethany discovered actual attachment theory- not attachment parenting- and the work of Mary Ainsworth, including her landmark research on the science of attachment and The Strange Situation.

Bethany dove into Ainsworth’s work, deeply immersing herself in the history and science of attachment.  While ultimately studying the science of attachment brought her to a place of self-compassion, Bethany initially went through a period where studying attachment actually caused her to mental flog herself even more.  As she learned about attachment she had a time period of believing that not only was she a bad mom but now she had information about all the very specific ways in which she was a bad mom and what the impact was going to be.  

Luckily, Bethany stayed the course and just kept studying attachment science.  She kept wondering and asking herself “is she (her daughter) going to be OK??”  She felt like she needed to understand attachment in a deeply human, embodied way.  

Remember- Bethany isn’t a therapist or a clinician or even in the mental health or psychology field.  She veraciously studied attachment theory, got herself interviews with some of the leading researchers in the field, and got trained in both The Strange Situation– the laboratory experiment that enables researchers to study and code infant attachment, and The Adult Attachment experiment– an interview that enables researchers to study and code adult attachment. 

Her book, Strange Situation, is a memoir about this journey and exploration.

It was a lovely, gorgeous book.  I read it quickly- like, couldn’t put it down and carried it around with me quickly.

“In order for us to see our children we have to see.”

I asked Bethany if she remembered the moment when she realized that if she wanted to parent her daughter in the way that she wanted that she was going to have to look more closely at herself.

Delight and Secure Attachment

There wasn’t a watershed moment but what she does remember is learning about how important delight is in secure attachment.  Ainsworth talked about how in order to have delight in your child- a crucial ingredient in secure attachment- you need to have delight in your life.   Bethany started prioritizing experiencing and enjoying moments of delight as well as having more compassion for herself.  

I loved hearing Bethany talk about the importance of delight because I feel the same way!!!!  My colleague Marshall and I prioritize delight in how we offer therapy that is steeped in attachment.  If you’ve trained with Marshall and I, you know this!

Bethany was just so clear- if we want to offer our kids delight we have to experience moments of delight in our own lives.  To give delight, we must experience delight.  It’s not selfish!!!

Back to Mary Ainsworth.  Bethany discovered and explored the work of Ainsworth in possibly more depth than anyone ever has.  She was able to access Ainsworth’s journals, her initial writings, and like I mentioned, even became trained in The Strange Situation and The Adult Attachment Interview!

Y’all, training in The Strange Situation and The Adult Attachment Interview is hard!  It’s tedious, it’s a firehose of information, they are loooooong days.  I haven’t trained in either myself (The Strange Situation is a week long training and the Adult Attachment Interview is two weeks!) and to imagine going into either without my background as a clinician who is already pretty well steeped in attachment sounds completely overwhelming.

And Bethany said, “I’ve never been happier.”

Live a life of delight!

Ultimately Bethany reflected on how this tenacious deep-dive into attachment theory and Ainsworth’s work has left her with a lot of compassion for herself.  She’s doing the best she can, just like everyone else.  Beating yourself up, she says, is not going to make yourself a better mom.

We can’t be violent ourselves and expect to emerge as a more gentle, wonderful, light-filled parent.  We have to cultivate those qualities in our own hearts.

She said “It’s like wanting to live in a blue house and continuing to paint it green- over and over and over again.  If you want to live in a blue house, you need to paint it blue.” 

YES.  Live what you want!  You want to give your child delight?  Live a life of delight!  You want your child to grown up a curious and compassionate person?  Live a curious and compassionate life.

YES!!!!

What does it mean to be a mom? What does it meant to be happy? Content? Loving?

Bethany’s exploration into the science attachment led her to conclusion that behaviors have actually very little to do with attachment. There isn’t a checklist.  Raising a child with secure attachment isn’t about breastfeeding or co-sleeping. 

It has to do with how you think and feel about our attachments and how this is transmitted from mind to mind, generation to generation.  

Bethany ends our conversation with Permission Granted.  Go out and live in a place of delight.  Have compassion for yourself.  You don’t have to go looking for permission for delight, compassion and rest.  You can give yourself that permission.  

Go find Bethany on Instagram @Bethany_Saltman and explore all the cool things she is offering at www.BethanySaltman.com.  The paperback of Strange Situation was released in April.

Bethany and I share a similar drive- to translate the science of attachment and make it easily accessible to everyone.  Strange Situation is a gift to the world.  It’s a lyrical story and an easy read that highlights the amazing work of Mary Ainsworth while bringing compassion to every parent who reads it.  

Robyn

This podcast is part of my series all about attachment.  In the coming weeks, we’ll be getting back to the basics.  What is attachment?  What is secure versus insecure?  Why does it matter?  How does attachment develop?  And ultimately then- how do we change it???

/by

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