Nothing Changed & Everything Changed – A mom interview {EP 265}

Robyn: I'm so grateful that you volunteered to come on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And to spend this time with me this morning.

Parent: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Robyn: Yeah, before we dive in, it can be helpful for folks listening to just have a little bit of information about you and your story.

Parent: I'm a single mom. I adapted through foster care. I chose to be a single mom. I was at a point where I'm like, This is the main thing I want in my life. I want to be a parent. So it felt kind of inevitable for me, and I ended up with ended up adopting my first placement so I have boy-girl twins. They came to me at 15 months, and they are now currently 13.

Robyn: 13-year-old twins. Which is an adventure in the like best of times. And I know, like not every moment in your family could be classified as best of times.

Parent: That's correct.

Robyn: One of the things that folks listening have been telling me that they've they're finding really helpful. And one of the reasons I even came into the club and said, you know, is anybody interested in coming on the podcast, was being able to hear from families who have been so deep, I'll just say, like in the trenches, like things are bad, right, behaviors are feel out of control. You're not sure what to do. You're under resource, no community, all you know, all the things and that there's the possibility of kind of moving through that. Because when you're in the middle of it, it really can feel like we will be here forever. Nothing will ever change. And also, I'm noticing how the definition of change, you know, shifts for folks, and that things don't have to be like all of a sudden, you know that we're, we're existing, like a neurotypical family would, right? Like, that's not what we're aiming for, necessarily. But there could still be a lot of hope.

Parent: Yes, absolutely.

Robyn: I feel like, yeah. I feel like, from what I've known about you for a couple of years now, that that describes your family.

Parent: I think that's really accurate, yeah, and it's it's hard for me, because I know in my mind, like I can remember more intellectually now, which I guess is also kind of progress, because it was very traumatic for a long time. 

Robyn: Yeah, sometimes it used to feel like just flooding of feelings, and now you're feeling a little kind of distance from the feelings, but can think about it.

Parent: I'm like, reflecting back, and I'm like, okay, like, I consciously know that I felt more miserable than I've ever felt in my entire life, and but I'm not there Now, like I can't, which is great. But I also want to remember, because I want to feel the contrast, like I'm so grateful, like looking back, but like I had two very, very they still are. They're still very, very intense, but two, like, very, very intense young children completely alone with like, no support, really, my family was completely overwhelmed. Professionals were completely overwhelmed. And so it's all, it's all on me, like, logistically, because I'm a single mom, but it's also all on me everywhere we go. Looking for, you know, quote, help or or support is a lot of professionals looking at me like, what do you what do you do when this happens? Because, like, we're going to, you know, the people that they're sending us to that are supposed to help us, speech therapists, occupational therapists, you know, the pediatrician, just because we we know her, and she's lovely, but that's not the point. But like, my child is under a table and the speech therapist is saying, Well, I can't evaluate her, like, what do you do? What do you do when she gets under a table? And I'm like, well, she doesn't get under a table at my house because I'm not trying to do a speech evaluation. Like, but it's like, anywhere we go in public became a scene. And my whole thing is the way I was raised, and there's problems with that. But the way I was socialized was, like, you don't inconvenience anybody, you know, you follow the social scripts. You just be normal. Like, just blend in and, like, don't, don't be the one. You know what I mean? Like, just, I just want to be, like, the background person, like, I'm not here to incon. And there's that, like, the bad part of that is like, Yeah, you were socialized this way. Then the other part is like, I really don't want to inconvenience everybody, like everyone to have a nice time. 

Parent: I could not have imagined like being able to like tolerate seems kind of tolerate, doesn't seem like the best word, but being able to actually tolerate and thrive and be okay within some of what goes on, and I think like, the biggest thing for us is it's Not like, it's not all perfect. We didn't, like, fix XYZ. We had seen like, tons and tons and tons of improvement things that were very much like, the behaviors that people would say, like, Oh my gosh. This has to stop. This can't be allowed. What are you going to do when they're 13, 14, and still, like, physically getting in your face or physically attacking each other, and there's big as you are, like, what are you going to do? It doesn't happen with the same regularity, and it's just been this, like, very, very slow, almost, like, you don't notice it when it's happening. Process of like, okay, so that decreased from like, it's not multiple times a day, okay? So it's like, just multiple times a week. Okay? Now it's like maybe once a week. Now it's like maybe every few weeks. And like, literally, now like, it's a one off, and I'm so grateful to be here, but it's like, all those fears I had of like, oh my gosh, what are you going to do when they're teenagers? Have, like, completely not proven true. I love this age. I am obsessed with this age. They are so much fun. This age is so demanding, literally, like, more intensive parenting than when they were in elementary but it is genuinely so much fun.

Parent: So glad because they're, like, the coolest people they really are. I just adore them. They're so funny. And I think that was one of the shifts. and you could say it how you say it, but like, how changing, how we see people change, is that it changes people, and I being able to see them more and more as like. This is a child that is literally doing their very best like, and they are, they're genuinely kind. Like, so stunningly kind, genuinely empathetic. Like, so, so sweet. And being able to see that and like, see is, this is, like a this is literally just they don't have the skills to do better right now. Like, they really don't, and they would if they could. But they can't. And the more I see them that way, it's like this, like, it just perpetuates itself. And then I like, see them more and more that way, and I have more compassion for them. And they're just, then they're, I don't wanna say, living up to but like, then that's what comes out honestly. Like, that's what. And I feel like, I feel uncomfortable, like, with just the general, like, societal need to credit parents with how your kids act. Because I think, like, either way, like, for good or bad, right? You see a kid acting nice, oh, they must have great parents. You see a kid acting poorly, and it's parents aren't parenting, and it's like, that's still, like, that's an individual human being. They have free will, they have autonomy, and so like all of that credit like to them, and like their growth and their progress, I feel like that's them, like that's who they are. And if anything, like, if I've done anything, I hope the thing I've done is create a situation where they feel safe enough to express that.

Parent: We're just at the grocery store. We're trying. We're just trying to get through the day. I don't want to be the reason that's hard. But everywhere we went was, was, was a whole, a whole kerfuffle. I don't know what else to call. Like, it was like, you know, like my child is screaming, and she's like, on the floor, and at one point she just took off in a target, and I literally stood there, like, can't some screaming? Like, can somebody help me? Because I have another child that's going to run in the other direction, and they're both just, just extremely, extremely sensory seeking. They were, they were young kids. They were extremely sensory seeking and just rough on things, not maliciously, not intentionally, but it's like other people don't seem to be experiencing this, like other people aren't just like they can't turn their back, or something's going to get broken, or they can't turn their back, or their child's going to be out the door and, like, down the street, and then, even as they got older, dealing more with, like, you know, just the the somewhat Typical twin aggression and fighting, but also beyond typical, yeah, to where it was like, and then it was at a point where, like, it was a constant, like, everything was fear. I was terrified. I was miserable. Everyone that was speaking to me, like, was fear based, and it was very much, what are you going to do when they get older? This can't go on, you know, like this. This isn't allowed. Like, okay, but it's still happening.

Robyn: I remember having a professional mentor be like, you can't allow that. I'm like, so do you have a suggestion for that beyond like. Bungee cords. Like, I, what does that mean?

Parent: Right? Like, it's just, it's like, an it's a meaningless phrase, and I know the intent is maybe good, but all it does is, like, pile on more shame, and it piles on more stress, right? And it piles on more fear, and then I'm like, in a worse place to deal with everything, because it's like, oh my gosh. Like, what do I do when they turn 13? What do I do when they're teenagers? Because you just picture this moment continuing on forever, and now they're bigger and and that's a horrible way to live. And I look back and I couldn't have at the time, because I feel like now, like, and I can't even, this is what's so hard for me. I can't even, there's no one thing that changed like, there's no one thing that changed like, it was so gradual. We're in like, such a good place now, emotionally and mentally. And it maybe wouldn't always look like that from the outside, but that's for me, like, that's how I feel. They are still at times, like, having very big emotional reactions to things in public that happened last week, and they're both sobbing, and I'm just like, I don't want to say, amused in the sense of, like, detached, but like, a healthy level of detached. Like, this is fine. I can handle this. Like I feel like I can handle this. Like this is just this is what it is. We had a good night, and now everyone's having feelings all over the sidewalk, and my capacity has like widened so much that it actually is like incomprehensible to me sometimes, because I could not have imagined in those like harder, like younger years when, like everything set me off. 

Robyn: It is really clear to me how much you just delight and your kids right as you're talking about them, and not in a way that's like, you know, like cherry picking the best parts of your day, but just like true, genuine delight and like who they are as humans on the planet.

Robyn: 100% I've said, I've thought that a lot, my parenting journey has been a lot different than a lot of y'all's, but I've said that a lot because people do want to say like, Oh, you're such a great parent, or like, I don't know what you're doing, but clearly you're doing it well, you know, they Say things like that, which it does have that message of good parenting equals good kids. Bad parenting equals bad kids, which is a very tightly held cultural belief we have. I think it helps us feel like we're actually in control when we're not. But it's like, you know this, if I've done anything well as a parent, what I've been able to do best is hope, hopefully. And my son edits my podcast, so this will be interesting to hear what he thinks is, I feel like the best thing I've tried to do is as much as possible, and I'm not successful at all the time. Just kind of get out of his way. Yeah, let him be him because he's inherently amazing like everyone else.

Robyn: If I can just sort of like, get out of his way, give them the structure, blah, blah, obviously, parent, but like, just kind of get out of his way and just let his awesomeness kind of shine through, and maybe redefining what we came into adulthood believing was awesome, which you said at the beginning, you talked about that feeling of, like, going to the grocery store and, you know, being so kind of wound up about, like, I don't want to inconvenience other people, but at the same time being like, well, you know, as we operate as like social beings in a well functioning, well functioning ish society, there is an aspect to like being aware of your impact on other people, of course, but I feel like what I heard you say is like holding that as true. That's that is a part of what helps society function, but with also being able to not totally collapse into shame if something does happen that you know is, quote-unquote, inconveniencing other people like it just has to be okay. And it sounds like you've made a really big shift, and I do watch you in the forum, I think you're kind of one of our leaders in this of just like really believing that who your kids are is okay.

Parent: I hope so. I think it is. And I hope they I hope they get that from me, because even with very well intentioned parents, I don't think I was, you know, that wasn't how a lot of people, like in our generation, were raised, and and, and I've tried to be really, really, like, proactive about that, especially as they're getting older and we can have like, more conversations like, this isn't harming anybody. This is fine, you know, we have, like, there's firm boundaries, like you're not going to harm yourself or others, but like, if it's not, if it's not harming you, you do you. And I've actually, like, sat them down and been like, you know what, I don't want to live in a house this is really, like, this is kind of my new show, but like, I don't want to live in a house where we're making fun of what someone else likes, you know, like, my daughter likes certain types of video games, or, you know, the way she plays, like Minecraft, or roleplays on Minecraft, that's what she likes. Okay, my son likes other different type of video games, and they make fun of my music taste. And I've actually, like, come down pretty hard on that and been like, you know what? We're not we're not doing this. Like, I don't want to grab a mouse like this. We don't make fun of someone else's interests. If it's not harming anybody. Like, just let them be everyone's allowed to like different things. Like, it feels so Elementary, but I feel like no one's like, explicitly laying that out so often, it's like everyone's allowed to like different things.

Robyn: Yeah, we're all allowed to be our own unique. Self and like that fully. This, this could be a question that feels like, oh, I have no idea the answer to that, which would be a completely fine answer. But do you have any thoughts on, like, how you kind of made that shift? Because it does tie us up in knots, and it has me too at times like and especially as a professional who supports parents. You know, I used to be kind of hyper aware of, like, my own child's behavior. What are people thinking of me because of that? And I had to work really consciously to let that go right? Like, those things aren't related. It's not his job to enforce anything about me, right? And it was hard, so hard. Do have any reflections on like, what were some of the things that helped you kind of make those shifts?

Parent: Oh, that's so tough, I can say. And I don't know, maybe that I started listening to your podcast, which I am not a podcast person, and I would say, I started listening to it, I don't know, two to three years ago, like I had read your book, I had followed you online. And I would walk the dog and listen to the podcast. And I can remember in my mind, like certain things you said are tied to certain locations. And this is very unique to me, like it was, like a very like visceral thing, but it's almost, I don't know if listening to it did something different. Something different happened, like it hit in a different way. And I think a lot of it for me is like, I don't like saying working on because it feels like so active, like I have to do this, because that was where I was stuck for so long. Like you have to fix this, and you have to do better and then, but you're also consistently giving not that message, which I think was what I needed. And I think at one point you said something about, like, how that urge to, like, fix this thing, like, I have to fix this thing right now with like, protection mode. And I think that one, like, really hit hard, because that was, like, the missing piece for me was like, I was always like, I have to fix this, and I just haven't found the right tool, and I'm failing and I'm that was one piece, because that, like, really, really clicked for me. 

Parent: And I think from there, like, it was more like changing myself, like internally, that's where I, like hesitate to say, like working on but it was like coming, like recognizing and like thinking about, like, my own stuff, my own like history of like shame and parenting. And what does a good parent look like in my need to feel like I'm always getting honors and everything, like I'm going to get an A-plus and this, and I'm going to get an A plus and this, and like, I'd always been able to do that until I had kids, and then I couldn't control them anymore, and and so the the image people got of me was one thing where I'm like, I can still meet all the requirements and all, you know, like, I'm an honor student and I'm doing great. And then it was like, when you meet my kids, and my kids are like, completely off the rails, yeah, and especially like for me, like, I started like, substitute teaching, so I'm like, in their school, like working in their district, and also like showing up as like the parent that like volunteers, and it's like, I want to get an A plus and being a parent, and then it's like, I can't like, i This doesn't fit. We don't fit what most people think of when they think of an involved parent. We don't fit what most people think of when they think of a parent that works at the school. Because they always have, you know, not always, but usually have, you know, the the kids that are like, the star students, and, I mean, I'm just a sub, but like, in any like, the parents that they're interacting with, you know, regularly. And I literally, like, I don't know exactly what specifically, like helped in that regard, but it's like just constantly, like fighting that shame, and even just like it maybe not fighting, but like recognizing it for what it is, and the pressure, because I felt like for so many times in meetings with the school or meetings with teachers, like they want you to perform that shame. Like, oh, your child hit somebody, and they want you to be like, it feels like they want you to be like, groveling and, oh my gosh, you know, that's not okay. And like, I just, I don't want to do penance anymore. Like, I can't do it. It feels like it's such a waste of our time, especially as I, as I got more confident in in parenting my kids and being genuinely a good parent to my kids, not a good parent in the eyes of society, maybe, but like a good parent to the children I have in front of me. And so once I hit that point, it's like, you can't tell me anything. 

Parent: And it feels a little bit scary, because it's like. God, I can be insufferable like you can't tell me anything, because I've seen it, because I've seen what happens when I don't approach my kids punitively, because I've seen what happens when my first instinct, and it took a lot of repetition to make it like muscle memory and instinct, but when my first instinct is comfort and not like to come at my kids, you know, like, why did you do that? My daughter's so much like me. And I had this moment where it was just like, What would I have needed in that moment? And it was like, I needed a hug, like I needed someone to be, like, it's going to be okay, like, and I hug her and she she's the type like, if you hug her, she just melts. I'm the same way, like, she's just sobbing. And the more I see that, like, I've seen the growth in my kids, and I've had that growth in me where I'm just like, I'm not wasting my time on all of this. Like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I am sorry. I don't want my child to hit anybody like that's truly terrible. But let's also consider the other factors. Let's consider, you know, there's so many things happening, and at the end of the day, what? What are we accomplishing by me sitting in a meeting being like feeling bad about myself and feeling shamed and like apologizing to people who aren't ever going to be as invested as I am who haven't seen the growth I have, and and, like, just kind of the, are you really going to sit here as an adult, and I have to prove to you that I think it's not okay for my kid to hit somebody.

Robyn: Like, our kids know that it's not okay. That's not the problem.

Parent: It's not the problem. Like, when my kids are, like, actually regulated and like, I want to my like, in their right mind, in their owl brain, is the nice way to say that. Like when they're there, they know all that, of course, all of that, they learn better than I do. Like they say the most stunning, insightful, like, self-aware things, and when it's not that moment, like, they literally can't access that. So what are we doing? Like, same for me, I mean, same for all of us,

Robyn: A big theme that I feel like I'm hearing from you. So tell me if I'm getting this right, and I'm, you know, of course, can't help but combine it with all other things I know about you, outside this these moments, is so much of what has helped you be able to just really, like, see your kids for who they are and be cool with that is that you've had to do that work for yourself, like, be cool with who you really are, and that you maybe came to adulthood with a lot of messages of like, who you are in your natural state, and just all of your you-ness, maybe always okay. And you've had to really work on finding a way to be like, well, not only is that okay, but it's pretty awesome.

Parent: Just a lot of self-doubt and a lot of like, not trusting yourself and kind of, you know, you should listen to other people too. And I think that was like another part of it was like being okay with me without that, without needing to have the validation like across the board, and also being okay with like, my parenting and my family, without always, like looking to somebody. And just being like, really, really selective. And then who, who I look to, like, Does this resonate with what I feel works for us? Does this resonate with like, what else I've heard?

Robyn: Yeah, like, so, really kind of, and I'm assuming that this wasn't a super active process. You didn't wake up every morning be like, I'm going to practice staying true to my inner wisdom, but that along the way, that is exactly what you're doing. A lot of intentionality around believing or experimenting with, can I believe that my instincts are okay, even if they end up being, like, not, quote, unquote, okay the situation, like, whoops, that got that one wrong, but like, it's still okay. Well, to get things wrong, it's still okay to, like, trust myself and believe that I can be good, and I can really relate to this one. I'm a good person without the A-plus. I mean, the a plus is cool, like, I'll keep them coming. And, I can be okay if I don't get that A plus from a place that is actually trying to measure something like that.

Parent: That's a huge thing for me. That's a huge thing for me, yeah, because I always, I always had the A-plus. And so that was the expectation. That was like, This is who you are, yeah, and when you've been like, not even like, materially, societally, like, successful, but like, just generally, like, people thought well of you, and yeah, you know, of course, of course, you're going to be fine. Of course you did that well, like, then to not do something it and to potentially fail at it is not remotely safe, and to to get to a point where that's okay and I can be okay with that is, yeah, it was me. It was very much like it was me. It wasn't anything that I did to my kids. They're the same kids they've always been. They're the same kids they've always been. And also, and it's been me, like, going through my stuff and just like, honestly, like slowing down and losing that, like, frenetic, need to change everything. And then you mentioned, like, evaluation, and, like, constantly evaluating and realizing that, like, stripped all the joy from our life entirely, like it's all gone. There was no room for joy, because it was like, you have to fix this, you have to fix this thing. And then the minute you fix one thing, it's like, okay, well, on to the next which I see with my kids in school, and I just feel like, Oh my gosh. Can we rest? an we just exist? Because they're so cool, and the biggest leaps that they've had developmentally, educationally, emotionally, the biggest leaps that they've had have been consistently when we're not trying to do anything; we're just like hanging out, and it would be academic stuff. It would be like, you know, Christmas or, like, winter break, and then it would be like, big academic explosion. 

Parent: But it was also just like, emotionally, socially, it would be like summertime, and I would and every, every summer, I would think this, it reached a point where it was like clockwork, where every single summer I'd be like, I wonder where we'll be in August, because I would see so much just social and emotional development, like relationally, so much growth over those summer months. And I think it was because we finally just chilled out. It wasn't like problem after problem after problem, and I in realizing, like, this is where I am right now, realizing like, how much of a toll that took on me, even when I wasn't, like, consciously aware of it, because it was constantly putting me in a place to view my kids as a problem to be solved, and not just someone to enjoy, yeah, being with and to like, like, so I, I had a moment with my son, a couple moments I where, like, we went, I think we went to the store or something, like, he had a doctor's appointment, and it would like cause me, like grief, that it what I have a much younger brother. So I was 15 when he was born, he was adopted, and growing up, like I'd be in college, he'd be, you know, like, upper elementary, whatever. Like, we'd hang out, we'd go out to eat, and it was just fun. We're just having fun, you know, we joke, we laugh, whatever. And it like made me so sad that I couldn't have that, or I felt like I couldn't have that with my son, because it was like, I'm always managing behavior, like I'm constantly like, oh my gosh, don't touch that. 

Parent: Oh my gosh. Come over here. Can you listen? Can you do this? And I had, like, a couple rare days where I'm like, wait a minute, that felt like hanging out with my brother, that felt really good, like, this is what it should feel like, and almost like, second guessed myself, like, Wait, like, but you're saying like parenting shouldn't feel like parenting, like parenting like I'm like, because it felt like I wasn't parenting. It felt like we're just hanging out, and it's like, no wait, wait, what? This might be something like this. This makes everyone better. Like, we all feel really good when I remove this pressure of like, you have to parent. And parent means that you have to do XYZ tasks and control their behavior. Yeah, you have to control them exactly. Yeah. You have to control them. Control your kids, like you have to be parenting. And it was like, wait, no, I don't have to do that actually, like, I want everyone safe. I mean, keep everyone safe Absolutely. Also, please don't touch that if it's breakable, you know, like, please, please don't walk in front of that car. No, but that's also just being a normal human. Like, I don't want anyone to break I don't want anyone to walk in front of a car. Of course, don't do that. But to remove that pressure of like, this is what parenting looks like, and this is what you have to perform for society, versus like, we're just we're enjoying each other, we're having fun, you know, and we get and part of that age, they're getting older, it's easier now, and it's not as much physical supervision of like two little tiny children, just like running them up. But that's added, I think a lot for our relationship is to genuinely be able to just enjoy each other, and for me to slowly, slowly, slowly, not be always so hyper vigilant.

Robyn: My guess is that it's possible that your kids because of their experiences before they became your kids. I don't know anything about what that was like, but I do know a lot about what brings kids into foster care and what happens when they're there, your kids miss probably a lot of early developmental experiences of simply because you exist, you're amazing, you're delightful. I love being with you. You don't have to do something for me to think you're amazing, which is what babies experience often, right? Like, just because you're here on the planet doing nothing, but actually causing me a lot of grief, and like all of the things I have to do for you and but you're amazing, and it's possible, maybe likely, that, like, that cup wasn't as full for your kids as it would have been if you had been able to know them since, like, their first moment on the Planet. And so some part of you, probably mostly, like, unconsciously, just knew that, like, my kids need that more than they need to have their behavior managed, or they need me to teach them. Don't do that. Stop doing that. You know, all those kinds of things. Like, there was something about your you that was able to really see they need me to delight in them, to know that their existence makes my life better.

Parent: They definitely missed out on a lot of that, and in some cases, like literally got the opposite. And I can remember when they first came to me. I mean, that was all it was because I was a new mom, Like, everything you do is amazing. And there was, there was no, and maybe this is just because of the way I came to parenthood. There was no expectation on my end. It was like, Oh my gosh. I just want to discover, like, who you are. Like, not you're not in a blank slate way, like they came with all their history and all of who they are. But it was like, I don't know you. Like, everything's amazing. I'm not projecting that I'm aware of, but not projecting as much, because there's no like you're a stranger to me, like we've never met, like I'm not you know what I mean? Like I was just, like, I just want to be a parent. Let's see what happens.

Robyn: I do know what you mean, but I do think that that is really hard for a lot of folks, that curiosity of show me who you are, and it's hard for a lot of folks for different reasons. I mean, again, all of that's about our own past experiences and blah blah. But this all gets really murky and, you know, all tangled up. But I do you think you're hitting on something that is, for whatever reason, was a little easier for you, and then how that maybe has been helpful in kind of coming to this place that you are. And I highlight that to help folks listening be curious about their own levels of curiosity, right? Like, how, how curious are we in having our kids really, truly show us who they are as opposed to who I'm hoping they'll be. And I think that that is a hard question to ask ourselves as parents, but I think if we were honest with ourselves, I mean, I know I could be better at you know, allowing my kid to just show me exactly who he is as opposed to who I want him to be, right? And kind of coming back to that place of, you know that again, of course, you weren't doing like, prescriptively, but coming regularly kind of back to this place of, show me who you are.

Parent: And that gets harder when they're older,

Robyn: I want to ask you, but Im looking at the clock. Are you okay for me to ask you one more thing? A long time ago, like early, early on in the our time together, you talked about the difference between being kind of, like detached versus being like, really, just fully present with your kids. So there's not this flippant, like, I don't really care what you're doing, but there's more about like, I'm here with you, and I'm not, like, flooded by what's happening. Yeah, I'm able to stay really here, in the here and now, as opposed to thinking about the future, thinking about everybody else who's watching or being consumed with my own dysregulation, which actually is what's happening when we become detached. She was just a different coping mechanism, right? We're so flooded with dysregulation, we disconnect, yeah, and that you're like, I'm not, I don't feel detached from them. But there is just this almost, you didn't use this word, but like, kind of piece of like, well, here we are, and you're doing your thing, and it really doesn't mean anything about me, and so I can kind of just be here with you in this place that you are, which is clearly uncomfortable. So this will also be a question that you're like, oh, I have no idea, but I think it's worth just pondering, and even for our listeners to ponder, like, How was that possible? Like, how do we shift from, this is an emergency, and I have to stop everything to fix you, versus, huh? Well, this is interesting. Clearly, you're having a hard time and that really has nothing to do with me, but I can be with you in this really hard time without making it about me.

Parent: That's really, really difficult, that's really difficult. Gosh. I mean, I think part of it for us was over the years, like, for a lot of reasons, and there's no like one, this is just what happened in our family, like, we are more physically safe than we were. So that helps, like, because I, over the years, like, repeatedly, have seen like, okay, it's not always going to end in significant violence. Yes, so and again. Like, that was just me, and it was me, like, like, slowing down and honestly, like, realizing how many times like, I'm escalating this, because I feel like I have to control it. So like, the more like, the more I do it. And then and then and then with work, I guess, because it's not as with, it's not as personal, but it is a weird it is a weird thing where I have an significant capacity that I did not have in the past, and most people, a lot of people, don't, and I don't know how To put it into words, and it's really tough, because I approach like, I can approach kids that aren't mine that way, and obviously like that. It's not as personal. So it's like reinforcing, and then that helps me at home, be more that way, because I see it, and part of it too is with the with kids at work. It's so low-level. I never had easy kids. I never had the luxury of easy kids. So then I go into a classroom and it's like a three year old crying, and literally, all I do is like, wow, you were so sad. You really miss your mom. Genuinely mean it. And she's like, Okay, I want to color. And I'm like, wait, what? What just happened? Because I never had that with my kids. It would, but I also was never able to be okay with it, because so it's, I don't know if that helps anything.

Robyn: No it really. I mean, if anything, I just think it's helpful to pause and reflect on the fact that these two possibilities exist like another possibility does exist. It actually is possible to be with somebody who's highly dysregulated and not get tangled up in it, which doesn't mean you're detached from it, like our dysregulated people we care about need us to stay present, and, you know, be with their experience as much as we can. It's also okay to have to touch out. But there's such a different way of being that is not just better for them, but it's so significantly better for us. I mean, it is exhausting to get tangled into someone else's dysregulation, to feel like you have to stop it, control it. It's just exhausting. And that kind of slow shift, and it is certainly always a slow shift of being able to to detach yourself from I must do something about this. This must mean something about me. This has to stop and to move more into can I be with you in this? And probably, I'm sure you don't do that 100% of the time. And there's certain circumstances when we can't, same, oh, yeah, same, same, but when we can, like, what a win, like, what a win, when I really can be like, Yeah, so we're just gonna be here in this and when it's over, we'll clean up.

Parent: Definitely not all the time, but, and the thing is, like, when I can it, and this isn't why, you know, like, this isn't why I would do it, and it's not even really a conscious choice, but it's over faster. it's over faster, yeah, and it's not like, I'm sitting there, like, but it's like, it's when I'm not, like, rushing to the end of it, like, emotionally and mentally, like, Okay, we just got to get through this. So we gotta and-- no, because then there's more pressure, and then it gets like, then it just that doesn't work, and then everyone's more stressed, and it's like, okay, this is what we're doing. We're crying on the sidewalk. Okay, that's what's happening right now.

Robyn: I know for me, which is, of course, different, everybody's different. But I know for me I had to have enough experiences of actually, kind of surviving, like actually getting through it to help my own, like, implicit memory, be able to, like, believe this will be over. Which sounds like kind of a bonkers it's like, well, everything eventually will be over. It's like, well, yeah, that's really easy to say when you're just sitting here chit chatting, but when you're in the middle of it, there, for me, really was a sensation of this will never end. And I might actually cease to exist because of how bad it is like that, when I could pause and be self-reflective, I'm like, Well, no wonder I'm working so hard to make it be over. And then I had to have enough experiences of really seeing like and paying attention to, because that was the missing thing for me. I had to really pay attention to like, no, it actually does end. And once my own, like, memory networks could kind of, like, go down that pathway instead of like, this, this sucks, and it will end. You'll be okay. And that just took time like that, took repetition, that took experiences, and it did take being deliberate about noticing that ended and I'm okay. I did have to be intentional about that. But I'm a train, you know? I was trained as a psychotherapist and worked as a psychotherapist for a long time, so a lot of opportunities to do that, because it's something I was often working with my clients on too. And so I was, you know, just had a lot of opportunities to be that deliberate about it. And that really helps. And again, this was a super conscious like, if I can just remember that I'm okay. It wasn't really like that. It was really just about my implicit memory being able to, I think, touch into that truth, then it just didn't feel quite as flooding, and then the next time, it wouldn't feel quite as flooding, and then the next time, and it just, it's taken. I mean, people think that I must have all of these skills, like, really down pat. I'm like, No, I'm actually so bad at these skills that I've had to make it my full time job, and that sounds funny, but it's not a joke.

Parent: But I think yeah, like you, you have words for it, because that's, I think I sit here and I'm like, I don't know what I did. I don't know, but it is, like, the noticing, and I think it's but it's not something that I was like, consciously, completely consciously doing, like, I'm going to do this, but like, that is, I think what I was doing, as you name it, like, I think that is what was happening. And then that's what gradually, you know, because I can remember where I this exactly what you said, like, this is never going to end. I can remember sitting in a chair in my living room between, like, my children's like, bedroom where their bedroom doors are thinking, I am stuck here forever and I'm never going to get to leave. Like, wonder, like, that was the only moment that existed, yeah, like, just, I have to sit here, and then that's like, Absolutely, like, I didn't even want to exist exactly, because my life is only sitting in this chair keeping my children from harming each other. It did end that was probably five, four or five years ago. Now I am no longer sitting in a chair in my living room. I am not there anymore. I was ordering delivery on my phone because I was like, no and like, nobody understands this, because, like, I have to feed my children, but I can't physically move.

Robyn: This was so delightful. Do you remember when you messaged me and you we giggled about, like, the finding as expired coupon for Cedar Point? Yes. And I was like, Oh, I get this lady. I get this lady. That was such a spectacular metaphor. And of course, you know Cedar Points that while it feels down the road, it's like probably three and a half or four hours, but it feels down the road. So Midwest thing. Sometimes we'll drive a little extra and go to King's island because it's just a little less busy.

Parent: Yeah, gosh, it's been years. It's been years for both for me, I'm too old now I don't know if I could do it. I don't know if I could do it. I was going to take my kids, especially, like, as things have gotten easier, like, Oh, that'd be so fun. Like, we should do that. Like we could do that now, but we went to the zoo, and we rode like the teeny, tiny roller coasters. I swear my son's whole life flashed before his eyes like he was like horrified. And I heard about it, repeat. I heard about it all, all evening, something, maybe not. Maybe we won't do.

Robyn: Lots of extra vestibular input for your kid does not feel fun.

Parent: Not at that level. Then he has a thing where he doesn't like, and I'm actually somewhat the same way. He doesn't like, like, large structures. It was wooden. He's like, it's because it was wooden and I thought it was gonna fall down, okay, but, yeah, I don't think he could, I don't think he could do it. Yeah, I maybe we'll, we'll pass on that one.

Robyn: Okay. Well, then you will have to use your expired coupon.

Parent: I will have to use the coupon that expired.

Robyn: It really is such a delight to know you, and you're such a valuable member of the club, such a valuable member. You've contribute so much, it's hard to imagine what it would look like without you, really, truly. So no pressure, no pressure, but we like, we like it, wasting ground. Thank you. I mean, thank you for like coming on the podcast, but also like doing you know you have some aspects of your life that make it possible for you to do this hard work and then to share about it is just so valuable. So thank you for that.

Parent: Yes, yeah, of course, you're welcome. I hope I made some amount of sense.

Robyn: You made tons of sense. Don't worry about that at all. Thank you!

Parent: Okay, yeah, thank you.

Robyn: Bye-bye.