There Is Nothing Wrong With You! With Guest Janet Nordine {EP 182}

Janet Nordine: Finally, we're finally together here.

Robyn: Thank you for saying yes. And for carving out the time to spend with not just me this morning, but to everybody who's going to have the privilege of listening to this podcast. Thank you. 

Janet: Thank you for asking me. I'm so delighted to be here. This is a kind of a big, big moment for me, a dream come true.

Robyn: It's fun to think back to when we met, which was what, like 2017 or 18? In Salt Lake City, at the library, which was a beautiful venue, actually, was a beautiful venue that training. And I look back, I mean, I look back on that training so fondly, that was my first time back to Salt Lake City since we'd moved away. So I have, you know, a lot of good feelings about that training anyway. But I met a couple of really special folks there that I've been able to keep in touch with including you. And now here we are!

Janet: Yes, here we are. All these years later. Yeah. 

Robyn: Well, let's just start with the kind of normal boring stuff. Tell everybody who's listening just a little bit about you and your background.

Janet: Well, my name is Janet Nordine. And I am born and raised in Las Vegas, Nevada, one of those rare creatures that was born here in the state. And I am a marriage and family therapist and registered play therapist, supervisor, and also, as of yesterday, a certified synthetic play therapist, which is a big deal to me, and very exciting. 

Robyn: Yeah congratulations.

Janet: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. But one of the reasons I know you and fell in love with you, before I ever met you is because you gave messages that I had not heard as an adopted person. So I was really just taken aback by some of the great things you were talking about- adoptees in my community about how we can be okay, and how, there's nothing wrong with us. We've done nothing wrong. And we're not bad as some parents and society might have told us. So that's how I found you and why I found you and why I sought you out. And this is so you know, my work has evolved since 2017. I work with children and families that are adopted. Children, families that are just struggling or children's and families just with some anxiety. And I just really love my work and want to get to it do every day.

Robyn: And, of course, I've never observed you doing play therapy, but you know how you can kind of tell if someone is a excellent play therapist or not. And when I imagine all these kids, and I also know that there's not that- I mean, at one point, you were the only RPT in Las Vegas.

Janet: There other RPTS. But I'm the only registered play therapist supervisor in private practice in Las Vegas. There's only 3 million people here. I've got this.

Robyn: I mean, I'm thrilled that you're there doing such important work. And I know that you do such a good good work for these kids and families. And also, gosh, that's just heartbreaking to think that there aren't more folks out there serving the kids.

Janet: I am on a mission to grow play, I have a very active consultation group and people that are very close to being able to officially say they are play therapists.

Robyn: Absolutely. That that is amazing. You do have quite the fire in you for contributing to the growth of, you know, good access to mental health care for kids, which we'll talk about later. At the end of our podcast today. Tell me more about this. So what you just said was like, I was somebody saying like there's nothing wrong with you. And like the moment when you said that I had this reaction of gosh, I'm so greatful that you heard that and received it and it landed on you at the probably kind of just the right time.

Janet: It absolutely did at the right moment. 

Robyn: Yeah. Also, it's just heartbreaking to think it that that was such a monumental idea. 

Janet: Well, the internalized message for me being a baby scoop era in the 1960s adoptee was your mother didn't keep you? And what does that say about a person whose own mother didn't want them, couldn't keep them, didn't keep them. So I had this fantasy growing up of who she was, and she would someday come and find me as a child, I would have those those fantasies as adopted people will, but what I heard you saying was that I was wanted, you know, how can I watch myself. My adoptive parents did a really great job raising me, they instilled very important values. They're wonderful people, I didn't always feel that way from them or from others, because I had that internalized message of not being kept. And it affected me for many, many years. So the year before I met you in 2018, and 2017, I did a DNA test where I found my biological family and got all of the story and the answers. And it settled me in a way that I hadn't been settled. But it also started me on a path of understanding who they were and who I was and what that meant for me in my life. So hearing you talk about, you know, our nervous system response and the whys. The why we do what we do made me feel like oh, I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do, exactly how I was made exactly how my nervous system is supposed to respond. I was the possum growing up, like I could go into possum mode, pull my head in as turtle at any moment and become invisible and silent. And that's how I felt most of my life- was invisible. So your messages were like, Oh, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to do for that abnormal situation that you were growing up in.

Robyn: And that sense of oh, I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do shifted something for you. 

Janet: Yes.There is a type of therapy called integrative body psychotherapy. And one of the messages is you're not bad, and you've done nothing wrong. And that's exactly what I felt when I found out about the nervous system and how it responds. And my body did exactly what it was supposed to do for the situation I was being raised in. So it felt like freedom. Like, oh, there's other things available to me now that I understand in a different way. And it sent me on a deep dive. I'm still on the deep dive.

Robyn: I imagine will be in the deep dive for for a long time. I mean, you and I have of course very different stories. And that is exactly what relational neuroscience IPNB. And then I think in a unique way, you know, my studies with Bonnie Badenoch, I think I just got this- I got so lucky with pulling these theories together and then doing it with her. Because so much I think of what you heard for me is what I had received from Bonnie and then was able to kind of offer out into the world. And I mean, I would say the same for me, it's changed everything about my existence, you know, the way I can be with myself. This idea that, you know, there's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong with me, or even the behaviors that I can look at with some sheepish-ness and be like, Oh, shoot. I wish I hadn't done that. I mean, ssheepish-ness is not even the right word. Like total shame. Right? But to be able to kind of hold both like to feel the shame with those behaviors and then also know, like, made perfect sense.

Janet: Of course. I did that. Because again there's evidence for it. Yeah. And so you know, I won't abandon myself and I need my own support and how can I stay there?

Robyn: I won't abandon myself when I need my own support and how can I stay there?

Janet: Because you know, shame, though debilitating at times. It also motivates you, right like that- that little bit of shame when the baby goes or a toddler goes to touch something hot like oh, don't touch that. It also is a way for them to learn, like, oh, there's a message there. And so how do I use shame in not a shaming way, but a productive, like, what do I do with that? How do I repair?

Robyn: Yes. So I want to ask you a question as you were talking about, you know, kind of growing up and having some of these beliefs about yourself. You qualify that with I had great adoptive parents. And that's a theme with adopted folks that-

Janet: They are not perfect, but they they did what they needed to do to get me to adulthood to be an okay person.

Robyn: Does it feel important to you to offer that, like, caveat, like that qualification when you acknowledge, like, what being adopted, like how that has impacted you? Does it feel important to add that qualifier?

Janet: It does, because some in the adoptee community are very angry, I'm sure you have encountered and you know, and rightfully so, yeah, I have been angry as well, I still have some anger in me that I have not yet been able to put my finger on and release. But saying that, you know, I had parents that took good care of me, that met my needs as good as they could. And with what they knew, during the time what they knew about parenting. It's important to say, because not everyone gets that message. And not everyone wants to look at that message. Sure there have been times in my life where like, this was the worst possible scenario. And also, where was that coming from a deep place of hurt, my own self-abandonment? Yeah. So how do I come back to like, the times when they did really take good care of me, or they guided me in a way that was helpful, and I still rely on? And also, how do I lean into what I know about my nature, where it came from, with the resilience that I saw in myself, you know, where I came from. My biological mother had a very hard life. And that was instilled in me somehow too, that, like, even when things are hard, I'm a fighter and I'm gonna get through this, because that came from her.

Robyn: Yeah. Would it be okay to look at this a little bit more closely? I think that there's so much in what you, you know, are expressing. And, you know, I know, so many adoptive parents who are hoping, you know, to the depths of their core being, that they can do it right enough, that their kids can be freed from some of these, what can feel like kind of core adoptee experiences, you know, and there's this, again, this hope, like, can I do this right? And I get the question a lot. What can I do to essentially save my kid from or prevent my kid from the implicit grief, right? Of being an adoptee not just the grief. But I think the message that so often gets tied to it of I was unwanted, there's something kind of wrong with me at my core. 

Janet: Yeah, the unwanted message is very deep. I have, you know, over the years- I have many, many adopted friends. I do retreats for hiraeth and healing, which is for adoptees, and others that have experienced, you know, removal or being raised by a non-biological parent. And the core belief among so many children and adults is there's something implicitly wrong with me because my own mother was unable to keep me or raise me. You know, whether that comes from a court situation, or the parents action that they have lost contact with that child. It is a message across the board that I've seen with so many people that, 'there's something wrong with me. There's something in me that is not keepable. And I will show you every way, I'm not lovable. So you, you know, I will leave you before you leave me. I will push you away before you try to get too close to me because I know you're leaving anyway.' Spoken or unspoken. It's there.

Robyn: Does it feel inevitable? Like do you think there is something an adoptive parent could do that would shift that message or maybe sooner or quicker or, kind of create an experience where that message doesn't sink in as deeply?

Janet: How do we create good parent messages? For people? How do we do that for ourselves too? How do we create a good parent message within our own bodies? That I love you and I want you no matter what, you know, even you know, like I love all your parts, even the ones that are big and scary, and angry.

Robyn: And even the ones that believe you're unwantable. Because I think it's so easy as a parent who- and to be clear to all my listeners, especially if you're new to listening. I'm not an adoptive parent. I'm not an adoptee, I try to be super clear about that. I don't speak for the adoptee experience, I think I'm a really good listener. And I try super hard to use my privilege. There's something about hearing some of these really hard truths from a non-adoptee that can sometimes land with the folks who need to hear it.

Janet: I want to use my adoptee voice in a way that is helpful. And also, you know, I'm pretty open with my clients. I don't tell them all the details of my adoption, but I do talk about it. And I've had small children and I say, 'Well, I'm adopted too.' that look at me in amazement and wonderment like, we've actually had one child say, 'They did that way back then?' I was like, What are you talking about? How old do you think I am? But yes, they have been doing it for centuries. Yes. And so for them to have a mirror of somebody that had the lived experience that was different than theirs. And this has been helpful.

Robyn: Oh, 100%, 100% I can- I have had that conversation with a few other adoptee therapists. I know, too, that this magic. That can happen when the you know, client is like, ah, oh, you too?

Janet: Yeah. Yeah. They'll ask questions. They'll be curious, or they don't want to know anything, which is okay, too. But the good parent message of, I'll take care of you. Especially for adopted children, this one, that's a big deal. I love you and I give you permission to be different than me. Because so often adopting parents want their child to acquiesce to fit in, to be like them, to take on their traits. And they're not going to, there may be some things that, you know, they pick up on. When I first met my biological mother, we have the exact same hands. And I was amazed by that, like I had to take a picture. Even the way we held our hands in the picture, even though we did not pose, were exactly the same. I never got that message from anyone until I met her and I had that mirror. So can we give children permission that are being raised by non-biological parents, even grandparents, even aunts, auntie's, uncles? Can we give them the message that it's okay for them to be different than me as a parent? It's a big deal.

Robyn: And how about it's okay. For you, oh, gosh, I'm struggling words. It's okay for you to want to be different. It's okay, for you to want to find ways you're connected to your biological family. 

Janet: And it's okay to be curious about where you came from. It doesn't make the adoptive parents- it doesn't mean that they don't love you. You know, I was always afraid growing up to ask questions. But then when I did ask questions, to my parents credit, they would tell me what they knew. And what they knew was my father was tall and my mother was not. That was a big that was like, oh, my parents. My parents raised, my mother was 4 foot 10, my dad was five foot three. I'm almost five foot eight. So I was the tall as them when I was 10. So yeah, that's what they knew. And I knew like, oh, somebody was tall. That's where this came from, you know? So they told me what they knew.

Robyn: Do you have a sense of why it was hard for you to ask questions?

Janet: Sure. Because there was that message of you know, these are your parents and you should not be allowed to ask questions. They never said that, just was this feeling like I don't want to hurt their feelings because I want to know other stuff about where I came from. And I'm really sensitive so I'm sure that came from a sensitive place in me. Like I don't want, you know- a people pleasing adoptee, I don't want to hurt their feelings. I would disengage because I would want them to be pleased with me and I would overachieve because I wanted them to be pleased with me. I was raised with an adopted brother who would underachieve and he was the opposite. So, you know, I was on the people pleasing end of things and he was on the defiant end of things and, yes, this was our temperaments. I believe.

Robyn: There's such a cultural message far beyond adoption. But I think kind of a western cultural message, that it's hard or impossible to have more than one feeling at once about the same thing. And so it feels like we're really kind of swimming upstream. I don't know if that's the right metaphor at all, I'm terrible at that. Of helping little kids know the truth, that it's okay to have lots of feelings, it's okay to, you know, love this family, maybe the only family you've ever known, but also be so mad that this happened or that you were adopted, and also love these other people, and love those other people, even if they really hurt you.

Janet: Right. So you know, I've been doing this work for a long time. And I don't work as intensely with children experiencing foster care as I used to, but I still do see some. And when we would work toward a child going back to a parent that maybe was very abusive. I never saw a child- well, that's not true. I did see children very angry. But they wanted to be with their family, they wanted to be with what they knew and who they knew their extension, not just parents, but just even to be in their own bedroom. You know, or where they were sleeping, or where their raised. That was a core theme with children, even if they were pissed off at their, what happened to them?

Robyn: Right, that both can be true.

Janet: Yes, our good friend Marshall Lyles taught me and he had these cups in the workshop in Austin, that had the word and on it or an ampersand and we were talking about the both and holding both. And so he's like, take that home with you. And so it's in my office, and I got a bigger ampersand for my shelf, because I really believe that message is both can be true to both hands.

Robyn: Yes. When you think about the fact that we are kind of bucking up against this cultural phenomenon of somehow believing feelings, you know, fit in a box, and we can only have one and there's a right one and a wrong one. And they contradict each other. Do you have any thoughts or ideas about what kinds of very practical things adoptive parents can do to make it really clear- without being intrusive, around, you know, without kind of pushing this agenda of let's talk about your biological family, which is not what we're going for either. But to really be clear, these conversations and your thoughts and feelings are all welcome here.

Janet: I think it's really important for little children to have that conversation right from when they come to the home. That family, the parents, share with them what they know. So they have a good foundational story about where they came from about their life by the time they're 12, or 13, when they're heading into adolescence, and really, that identity starts to form about themselves, if we're waiting until you know, the legal age of 18. And then you can go search, that's not going to be helpful, because I don't know many 18-year-olds that really can handle the complexity of some of those messages or stories that they receive. I don't know a lot of adults- I mean, it was hard for me and I was in my 50s. Right? So how can we tell them and share with them what we know, in a loving, caring way. And so let them know their cherished, right, let us let them know that they're important to the parents. Let them know that, you know, you don't have to be afraid of the story, because I'm gonna hold it with you. It's the with that so important. Doing with, being with, I'm not just going to drop this message on you and then send you to bed, you know, it's going to be a conversation that's just available. When you're curious when I was able to come up. They know anything about you know how that parent looked. Wow you a blonde hair like your mom, which is true for me. Bringing those messages up and asking the child how they want to refer to that first family. There are many ways to refer to them. I used to use the word family, which I don't anymore, I use 'my first mother' because that just feels better to me and my body. But there's no right or wrong way. It's important to ask the person that's experiencing it how they want to refer. I'm working with a family now that the child has very many memories of where they came from, you know, because they're older. And we talk about it and he talks at home and we talk in session and it's just kind of normal. Yeah, normalize- normalize it even though it's kind of an abnormal thing to normalize.

Robyn: It feels like also normalizing the grief that's underneath these very complicated feelings for both the adopted child, adult, whoever we're talking about, but also the adoptive family, that there's grief underneath all of this and can it be okay?

Janet: I do a lot of trainings in play therapy community and in therapy community in general, we talk a lot about disenfranchised grief. What is that? You know, lots of people don't recognize that in adoption, and how can we- it's not just the adoptee experiencing, just like you said, the adoptive parent who is experiencing it. Have you dealt with your own grief? Maybe there was infertility? Have you dealt with that? Maybe there was a grandparent that suddenly has three children they have to raise and that wasn't on their plan? How do you grieve with the loss of that? Those retirement golden years, now you're doing something different that you didn't expect? And really being honest about that with yourself? You know, like, I really am feeling this way. And was it affecting my parenting? Is it affecting my life? How do I care for myself? How do I see myself and hear myself?

Robyn: And again, that both can be true, right? That I can be really mad, or have grief, and also adore this child? And I can actually even be really- I mean, I know, you know, this is the quote-unquote, Baffling Behavior Show. So parents listening to this show, have kids with behaviors that are so hard to make sense of, and, you know, dangerous, and there's just no way we can- we look at these behaviors, and we're like, yeah, but we kind of do need to get them to stop. And as much as I can say, changing behavior is not my primary objective. And it's, it's not, but there's some reality to the fact that behaviors are like, they're hurting people, they're intruding on people's boundaries. And it makes a lot of sense it, that there's this longing and this need to want to change the behavior. And we can be really mad and angry and have huge, huge, huge feelings, and also still love this child. And it's even possible to know that like, maybe in this moment, it's hard to find those feelings,

Janet: From the child's perspective, that parent has some baffling behaviors too, like, why are they doing what they're doing? Because here I am telling you everything I need, and I'm angry, and I'm grabbing the knife or doing whatever? What's wrong with you? Why aren't you seeing how mad I really am?

Robyn: Yes, do you know that very few people reflect what you just said back to me that's like, you know, we talk about these baffling behaviors. And kids are also looking at their parents, like, what about your baffling behaviors? Very few people reflect that back to me. I mean, it's implicit and in kind of the message that I'm giving, and sometimes it's super explicit. But the other person I can think of off the top of my head, who reflected that back to me was also an adoptee.

Janet: Yeah. Well, I grew up in an era of, you know, children are to be seen and not heard. Yeah. Right. And I really was driven into my, into my little being, and I took that as gospel. And it confused me. Yeah. Like, I have lots to say, and I have lemonly feelings. And why aren't you noticing? You know, when a parent can look at a child and say, like, I see how angry you are, and I'm not leaving. I see how hurt you are. I see whatever it is, and I'm not leaving you. We're gonna do this together. It's makes a big difference. It's a big deal.

Robyn: Oh, huge difference. Huge difference.

Janet: Yeah. And when the child sees a parent crying or upset or scared or worried, and they say, I'm feeling this way, because, then they explain it to the child, because what the child takes in especially the adopted child is, 'my parent is crying because I've done something wrong. There's something wrong about me.' When a parent can share how they're feeling and the reasons behind it. You know, when you got so angry, I got scared. And now I have some big feelings and or I'm feeling sad, because whatever. Yeah, I'm feeling sad, because I know how much you miss your biological family and it hurts me that your feelings.

Robyn: Yeah how can we do willing to step into that grief? You know when we a few moments ago talked about parents and how parents have baffling behaviors too. I- my thought went to like, Oh, I'm wondering if a listener cringed at that, or felt embarrassed at that or had even an angry response to that. And I just wanted, like, pause and be super explicit that all of those feelings, again, are completely welcome. They all make sense. Yeah. And there's also information in that, that if- if there's a part, like when we get really honest about our own baffling behaviors, and we're still kind of falling into shame, or anger that they were pointed out, I think that then kind of allows us to take this next step to be curious about how are those feelings towards these quote-unquote, baffling behaviors impacting our relationship with our kids? 

Janet: Right? Are we investing so deeply into our thoughts that that's the truth? Because it's not the truth? Right? It's an information, it's a message, how do we sit with that would be okay. Because you know, what, I have baffling behaviors to myself, I don't know if you do. I am a conundrum on occasion. It's really, it's really kind of funny to be like, Well, what do you do that for, where's that thought coming from, what's coming up for you now? And then to be curious, and also not take everything so dang seriously?

Robyn: I mean, isn't that it right. For me, emerging also from that place of like, wow, I spent years and years and years being pretty darn- I mean, really, I've spent my whole life. But then intensely working on that in a therapeutic way of really, you know, addressing this, quote-unquote, problem, head on and doing it so intensely, and so seriously, and there is a freeing moment where you're like, I don't actually have to take myself so seriously.

Janet: Well, isn't that an interesting thing that's happening right now? Fascinating.

Robyn: Without question, I mean, I can talk about baffling behaviors, because I have a very intimate relationship with them. This isn't just an observation I've had in my life, right? Like, I've been on this lifelong pursuit, as I think many of us in this field are of understanding ourselves, and making sense of ourselves. And for me, I finally realized, like, Oh, I've been, I've been trying to find a way to be with myself with compassion, instead- yeah, exactly. And humor!

Janet: You know, there's this difference, there's this big thought that you know, is compassion fatigue, really compassion lights up the part of our brain that's the pleasure of sensors, right? Yes. And empathy is the thing that lights up the pain. So how can I bring compassion to myself, I read this great book, called 'Good Morning, I Love You,' which I've shared with you. And I still do that practice in the morning. Like, I get up. And I'll say, 'Good morning, I love you Janet,' in my mind, or out loud or whatever, but it's really shifted how I feel about myself. You know, and I have a few friends that have read that. But can we greet each other that way? Good morning, I love you, or whatever time it is. And it's just lovely. And it just changed- and I've shared that with parents. How can they give that message to their child?

Robyn: Yeah, yeah. You gifted me that book!

Janet: I really love it. It had a big impact on me, obviously.

Robyn: Yeah. I don't know if I've ever shared this with you. But one of the impacts you've had on me is how, what feels like to me, my observation is how kind of unabashedly, you are embracing these, like, I am here to love myself. And I am falling in love with myself. And in that, it's so clear when you say those things, that you have reached a place in your own journey where you're, like, embodying, like those pieces. And my experience of it, again, is that you're very unabashed about it. Like you're you just want to tell everyone.

Janet: I want to stand on the mountaintop and say like, it's possible. Yeah, like it really, because let me tell you 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you know, as a teenager, I won't be here. Now, I don't have that message in my brain as it used to be. Are there moments when I feel like this is really- this not settling like this? Sure. And, can I go, 'well, here we are. What are we gonna do with it now?' Right. So I so appreciate you saying that like that is so meaningful for me because there has been a lot of emotional work and a lot of rebuilding of self and rediscovering who I am and I love that Yeah, there's a line in a Journey song, 'I get the joy of rediscovering you.' Like that to me is I get the joy of rediscovering me. It's a big deal. It's a really big deal. I have two friends that are both therapists and also adoptees, and we get to hang out. Actually, one of them was with me in Salt Lake, Kristen. And Kate the other friends said, 'you're really in your Renaissance period.' And I was like, Yes, I am. I love that word. Yeah. So rebuilding and re-figuring out who I am.

Robyn: And I love how you just also modeled and all of that, like, being in love with ourselves doesn't mean we like every part of ourselves. We're not annoyed by ourselves. And that's true about all people. I mean, really, I think I've probably said this on the podcast before, like, in the 1 trillion million billion dollars I've spent on therapy, like probably the most impactful thing she's ever said to me, was, you know, people are annoying. Well, they are, and me too, and that it's okay.

Janet: You know, I've been working with a therapist, that same therapist for the past four years now. And he's made a huge impact on me. He's the one that is the IBNP therapist that I mentioned, it's really helped me with these messages. And in our very first meeting, you know, as you do and your intake, you tell them the whole story. Yeah, I shared this with you in Florida when we were together. And he looked at me and said, that is a messed up story. It's like, well, finally, somebody said, what's the truth. Right? And so that was the foundation of like, we can rebuild this, You know, I'm going to be okay. But somebody got it finally, and said the words. That I needed confirmation that I wasn't just making it up

Robyn: Said the words without giving you some message of like, horror, or like wanting to back away from it.

Janet: Yeah. And then later on in our work together, he said, you know, talking about feeling as a child, like too much, too overwhelming. And he looked at me with all the compassion and said, you're just right. And I was like, there it is. And then I started- I was able to go into this new renaissance. And it's, it's been a beautiful, amazing, hard journey that I wouldn't trade.

Robyn: You are doing so much work, not only in the adoptee community, but in like children's mental wellness. In general, I'm assuming they feel really related to you like your own personal experience and your own kind of journey with mental wellness. And then the work that you're privileged to do for these kids.

Janet: Yes, you know, I live in a state that we are at the bottom of most of the lists you don't want to get to the bottom of and at the top of the list you don't want to be in the top of. So in Nevada, children's mental health is 51st in the nation as of two years ago, we've gone up a little bit, but for still not doing great per capita, we don't have enough therapists for people in general. So it has always been my dream and goal to bring appropriate mental health training who, my city, Las Vegas so as you know, in September of this year, I'm hosting the Las Vegas play therapy symposium, and I've entitled it, 'What about the children?' Because really, that's the question, What about them? You know, what are we doing to help them? How are we being pleasant for them? And I'm bringing some pretty fantastic, at least in my opinion trainers and play therapists to Vegas to talk about, you know, how we can be with children. How we can look at children with neuro-divergence differently, how we can work with children and families that children are expressing some gender differences that maybe society or their parents don't understand. And I love that she is, Mary Beth Murray is calling it gender euphoria and expansion. I love that. Marshall is coming to speak, Tammi Van Hollander. Lynn Louise Wonders and I are hosting, she and I are both speaking. It's just going to be a fantastic weekend and I'm so looking forward to it and hoping many people will attend not only just from my community, but from everywhere. Because Vegas is fun. Yeah, we need to help! We need the healthcare.

Robyn: Vegas is fun, and it's pretty easy to get to! So I mean, I love, I love, love love. What about the children? Like I love this. I love that as a title as is like has that energetic invitation of curiosity, right? Like I think you can kind of say that actually with a little bit different tone. It doesn't come out quite as the same, but like, really, the energetic invitation of this events. What about the children? 

Janet: Yes, that line came from= I was privileged to go to Kenya this last summer 2023 with a group of play therapists. I met up with a group of play therapists there. And they had the head of the all mental health of Kenya as come as an opening speaker. And he talked about the terrific event that happened in Kenya, where many children had lost parents. And somebody came to him and said, what are we going to do? What about the children? And that just touched me. And I started to weep. And I just gave myself goosebumps again, because I'm remembering that moment. And I, you know, he talked about mental wellness. And I love that feeling, too. So I've just really incorporated that in over the last year of like, my work and how I approach things. And we are well, how do we remain well, how do we find our way back to wellness? Nothing wrong with us because we struggle? 

Robyn: Yes. I think that the energy underneath an event is as important if not more honestly important than the actual speakers that are being brought in. And it shifts our own nervous systems. It's just how we're there. It just like the things that are said that aren't like the bullet point objectives, right? You know, those things can be said anywhere. But it's all the other stuff that gets said and the resonance and the inspiration says, I just imagine these folks coming to this space that you've curated was such thoughtful- such thoughtfulness, and bringing to it just this genuine curiosity of what about the children.

Janet: And love. 'Cause that's the thing that makes it right, we can go to all kinds of trainings, and we can learn all kinds of things, but if we're not feeling loved and held, it doesn't matter. Even by ourselves, how can we love ourselves in that learning space? And that's really what I truly hope to incorporate in this event is that people come and they feel held and taken care of, because that's really what I want them to feel as well. Yeah. And have some fun. We have some music playing. There might be some P!NK music. I don't know what can happen.

Robyn: Well, where can folks find, I'll put the of course the link in the show notes. But tell me in my listeners, like where they can go find the information about it?

Janet: lasvegasplaytherapy.com, very easy. Yeah, and you know, just check out what's happening, you know, who's coming and what they're going to speak about. That's really what I wanted to do was hit the hard topics, not just the warm and fuzzy topics. So we're going to be talking about children present with suicidal ideation, how children talk about their neurodiversity, how families are challenged by gender identity. You know, how we, as therapists can show up for ourselves? And how do we show up in a way that is compassionate just not as pity, I'm working, I'm fine. How do you tune to yourself in a way that's loving and caring, because that's going to translate into your work. Some of the big hard topics, but also important ones.

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, of course, it's like, well, of course, you're tackling hard topics. First of all, of course, you're doing that. And also, I'm just having this sense of like, I don't know, gratitude isn't maybe exactly the right word. But we'll just say gratitude that folks will get to honestly, attack these big hard topics, like, honestly be with these big hard topics in a space is not just checking the box, because we need to get training on these different things, but in a way that invites creates the safety to invite our whole selves, to be there and to be challenged. Right? And to really get curious even about ourselves, and all of the parts that we're bringing, you know, in connection with those big hard topics. 

Janet: And of course, there's 20 CEs. For those that are play therapists with APT and also for their licensure, and they're going to be meaningful to CEs. So not just gonna be the flash that you have to do because your board says you have to do it.

Robyn: I know putting on events takes things out of you that nobody really could possibly begin to understand. And I hope that the event also gives a lot to you so that it can be sustainable, because I know how crucial it is that we, you know, really come together as a community and support the children in your community.

Janet: There's a movement happening in Nevada right now where there's focus on children. I'm part of a consortium that's new was invited, so privileged and happy to have my voice included, that we're enacting change in our state. We're looking at legislative bills and things and money and all this stuff that, you know, it's so important to get to enact change in a meaningful way. So I'm happy to lend my voice to that project as well.

Robyn: Yeah, that's amazing. That is amazing. Well, Janet, I'm so grateful for you. And so grateful for our friendship that we've cultivated over these years from from meating in the library.

Janet: Yeah, I love the way that the library was because, you know, books are cool. 

Robyn: Books are amazing. Libraries are the best place to hold trainings, Marshall and I try to do it whenever, whenever we can. 

Janet: You're speaking to the daughter of a librarian who was raised on books, I don't think you knew that. You didn't know that.

Robyn: I was also raised on books, but not because I was the daughter of a librarian, it was just all I ever wanted to do was read. You put effort into our relationship and you stay in touch and I am so just grateful for that. And we have all these opportunities where we actually get to see each other it's kind of wild, like I see you more than a lot of other people. And hopefully, we'll get to do that again in October here in beautiful Michigan.

Janet: Michigan, I'm so excited. And when the ask came to to be a, you know, a facilitator at the Hiraeth and Healing retreat again, when they said Michigan I was like, where's- how close is this to Robyn, because, you know, maybe we could carve out a moment. So I'm so glad that we can do that.

Robyn: I'm pretty positive. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to carve out a moment. Early October in that part of Michigan is going to be breathtaking.

Janet: I cannot wait because I live in the desert and anytime I can see green or water is a moment for me for sure. 

Robyn: You'll see a lot of water and hopefully lots of color to see if that should be like peak color season.

Janet: And I'm just so happy that you and I are friends that makes my- really enhances my life. And I get to say, oh yeah, I can ask Robyn. Let me just submit it and I'll ask her. I love that.

Robyn: I love that too! Thank you so much for taking the time this morning to, you know, come and chat with me and be on the podcast and tackle the hard stuff. Super grateful.

Janet: I'm here. I'm here for it all the time. Anytime. 

Robyn: Thanks, Janet. Thank you!