Is Behavior Change the Goal? {EP 224}

Robyn: Maybe you started listening because the information relates to a child in your life, but you've kept listening because you've noticed that it kind of relates to yourself or your own nervous system. And yeah, I get that for sure. I mean, Kanye, how do you think I know so much about the nervous system of a child with a baffle behavior. I mean, it is very, very intimately familiar to me. So anyway, I know y'all are here for all sorts of different reasons. Maybe you're parenting a kid with a history of trauma, maybe you're parenting a kid with a sensitive nervous system for all sorts of other reasons, but I think that's one of the coolest parts here about The Baffling Behavior Show, is that we come together regardless of history. We come together because of what's happening in our families and in our lives now, and we work together, me and you work together, but I think in a way, we're working together as like this big global community of families who know what it's like to be parenting kids with these big, baffling behaviors. So we come together really because of behavior change, right? Because we are all just longing for behavior change. If we were cool the way the behaviors were and we weren't necessarily seeking behavior change. I don't know why he would press play on this podcast. So yes, behavior change is, of course, one of the things that we're hoping for. I mean, I have my own felt sense of being with somebody and just like hollering at them, or wanting to holler at them, or sometimes actually hollering at them, like, oh my gosh, just stop it. Right? Like, I don't care where this behavior is coming from, I just want you to stop it. I mean, I y'all. I get that. I get that. I get that.    

Robyn: Although I also know that sometimes when I'm hollering, just stop it at someone, or I'm feeling it like rising in my body and I want to holler it. The reality is, is, is that person doesn't necessarily need to stop what they're doing. I probably need to widen my window of tolerance for, you know, regulating through some sensory stimulation that's otherwise like, gotten to be kind of uncomfortable or painful for me. So yeah, sometimes other people's behaviors doesn't actually need to change, and what we need to do is increase our tolerance for that behavior. But also, those of you listening to the show know kids whose behavior really does need to change, I mean, it's having a really negative impact on them. It's violating other people's boundaries. It's hurtful. It's not helping that child get their needs met. I mean, there's really good, legitimate reasons why we need to pause and get curious about, hmm, how can we get this behavior to change? Wanting somebody else's behavior to change makes so much sense. Again, especially. See if it's hurting that person, or hurting someone else, or violating somebody else's boundaries. So what I want to be curious about today is, Can wanting somebody else's behavior to change be important, like stay at the forefront of things, especially if that behavior really does need to change, and also, can we stay curious about but is behavior change really even the goal? And what if, even though I'm recording an entire podcast episode about this, you don't have to be the one who considers if behavior change is really the goal. What if it's fine for you to stay focused on behavior change is the goal, but maybe other folks could open their capacity to consider other goals.    

Robyn: I mean, what if, like, especially during times of intense dysregulation, I would never dream of asking a caregiver to be like, Hmm, I don't know. Is behavior change really a goal? No, no, what I think would be unbelievable would be if families who of course have behavior change as their primary goal. What if those families, what if you could have professionals involved in your family's care? Who those professionals could keep their own psychological boundaries so strong between them and you the struggling family and the child, and see that behavior is certainly a problem, but yes, also stay focused on what's happening in the nervous system. Oh my gosh. Y'all that's actually what you need. You need professionals who have such strong psychological boundaries that they can resonate with you and say, Oh yeah, this is bad. And then we get it. Let's try all the things to get this behavior to change while also seeing in their own confidence that the path to that change is through the nervous system. Now I'm not going to give a refresh on the nervous system and behavior change. I'll direct you to some episodes where you can dive into that. So I have an episode from earlier this year called All Behavior Makes Sense. It really breaks down the neuroscience of behavior. And I have another episode called Focus on the Nervous System to Change Behavior, and I have a webinar by the same title, Focus on the Nervous System to Change Behavior, that helps us really look at the behavior through the lens of the nervous system.    

Robyn: Now, all behavior we can look at through the lens of the nervous system, for sure, but those of you listening to this episode, I know that you are navigating a situation in which you've tried all the things to get the behavior to change. You have tried every reasonable behavior modification intervention that exists, and it's not working, which is why we in particular, are just staying so anchored in we've got to look at the nervous system. If we could change behavior another way, we would, because it would be easier. But we're here and we're listening to this episode, and I'm recording this episode because we know we gotta dive deeper, right? There's these two states the nervous system, safe connection mode, not safe protection mode. And in general, the behaviors that you wish your child would change are coming from protection mode. So it's not the behavior exactly that's the problem. I mean, yes, the behavior is a big problem, but the behavior is sort of like the smoke, and we're not here trying to just get rid of the smoke. We've got to figure out, but why? Where's the smoke coming from? Let's look for the fire and address that, as opposed to staying focused on just getting the smoke to go away right. So to be clear, I want the smoke to go away too. Smoke also is harmful, but if we just stay focused on that, we don't get to where the smoke came from. We are just going to continue to have the problem over and over and over and over again. So yes, I absolutely want your child's behavior to change. I absolutely want your child's behavior to change, and you're not wrong for wanting that yourself. And also go ahead and stay focused on that. Stay focused on I need my child's behavior to change.   

Robyn: And also, can we stay focused on that and explore the idea that behavior change is actually the byproduct of healing and regulation now, yes, can we get behavior to change through fear and punishment, and actually increasing protection mode, sure, sometimes, sometimes we can. But is that solving what the real problem is? No. So we want to try as much as possible to stay focused on what the real problem is and keep our energy on. Can we focus on that? Can we know that behavior change is a byproduct of integration in the nervous system and regulation? In my book, I wrote this sentence. So I went to Chapter One of Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors, and pulled the sentence out, because it is a sentence I'm continuously kind of referring back to in my mind. It says, "I do want your child's behaviors to change, but more than that, I want their hurt to be seen and known, honored, welcomed and healed, and when that happens, their behaviors will improve. I'm confident this is true, because this is simply how humans work." Now, also, y'all notice there are a lot of I statements in that passage from my book, right? I in that passage, didn't say you need to change your focus and away from getting behaviors to change to blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah. I said I want their hurt to be seen, known, honored, welcomed and healed. And yes, if there's times where you can touch into that truth, too awesome, but actually, I'm going to be the one who holds that burden. I'm going to be the one that holds that responsibility, and also I'm going to do the work to help there be more professionals who can hold that burden, who can hold that responsibility and bring it to you. All right, I'm going to do that work to help there be more professionals who can help you and your family. So we're not throwing out the idea that we need behavior to change. Of course, we need behaviors to change. We're kind of just like reordering it right? First, regulation, connection, and felt safety, then behavior change.   

Robyn: First, regulation, connection, and felt safety. Now, can we put those three in order, like one first before the other? Not really. I mean, technically, felt safety is the foundation, because like connection versus protection is where behavior emerges from. But sometimes connection invites in safety, so we reach for connection first as the kind of portal to safety. Sometimes regulation invites in felt safety. So we reach for some bubble gum or some lycra, or we move whatever sensory stimulation is causing the dysregulation and protection mode, and we let that then invite us into felt safety. So there's different pathways to safety, but regardless of how we get to safety, the state of the nervous system needs to change if we want the behavior to change. So first regulation, connection, field safety, first the nervous system, then behavior change. Have you ever taken the batteries out of the smoke detector because you wanted us to stop going off? That's not a bad short-term solution, especially if you know that the smoke detector is kind of like misfiring, right? Like it's going off because of Thanksgiving dinner being prepared, or the battery's low, so it's chirping. I mean, it's again, taking the batteries out to get the smoke detector to stop making a bunch of racket isn't the worst idea, but it's not the long-term solution, right? You have to find out what's really going on, and you run the risk. If you you know impact the way the alarm system works, you run the risk of the built in way that alarm system is supposed to work not working in the future.    

Robyn: So if we stay focused on the behavior change, we sort of risk impacting negatively the connection protection system. I mean, the protection system is there for a reason, right? We're not looking to get rid of Watchdogs, right? We're not looking to get rid of Possums. We want them to only work as hard as they need to. So we don't want to get rid of how the body alerts us that something is wrong. We want to help the system work only as hard as it needs to, and stop setting off false alarms, right? So we've got to do that big picture work in the long term, or we really end up only increasing the risk. Now, without question, it is a privilege. It is a luxury, to be the person who can stay focused on the nervous system is what needs to change if we want the behavior to change. There is something about having a little bit of distance from the behavior itself, the impact of that behavior that allows enough safety for the nervous systems to stay focused on what the real problem is. I mean, that comes from safety, that comes from the Owl brain, and there's some privilege in that, for sure, and if you are deep in the trenches without services, without support, with a child that's not getting the support that they need, with a child that's dangerous, with a child that's impacting everybody else and the family's ability to be in connection mode themselves. Then, yeah, thinking about we got to change the nervous system and not just stay focused on behavior. That probably seems preposterous, but you know why that's true? That's because you also are in protection mode in the Owl brain, curiosity, staying focused on what the real problem is. Those are all Owl brain characteristics. And by all means, if you're in a state right now where your Watchdog or your Possum brain needs to be in charge because of the level of intensity that you're living in, by all means, let it be in charge. Of course you want the hitting to stop. Of course, you want the screaming and the swearing to stop. Of course you want the behaviors that's hurting relationship to stop and you want them to stop quickly. That makes perfect sense. And I wonder if some of you listening can hold both truths at once, the truth of I want this behavior to stop, and I trust that this behavior will change when regulation, connection and safety are brought to the nervous system.   

Robyn: Can some of you listening hold both truths and those of you who can't, please if you thought to yourself, no, I cannot hold that truth like I just need the behavior to change. Take a breath and say, Yeah, my nervous system is doing what it needs to do too. I don't need to shame my own nervous system. I don't need to feel like I'm doing it wrong, because Robyn says I should be able to focus on the big picture, and I can't do that right now. All I want to do is focus on the behavior right. You're not doing it wrong, and actually, I'm not asking you to try to do anything different. It's the rest of us who have enough regulation on board to hold the truth that we don't just want behavior to change. We want the nervous system to change. And sometimes you might be able to hold that truth too, and sometimes you won't. Sometimes you can hold both together. Sometimes you won't be able to hold both together. Sometimes I can't hold both together. That's why we're doing this together, because sometimes some of us have enough regulation, sometimes some of us have enough access to our own window of tolerance that we can hold both truths. For those of us that can't hold both truths, and I really, really, really want you to find a professional who can hold both truths, right? And so that's part of why I do so much of the work that I'm doing. I mean, I'm doing it for you, of course, who's listening, but there's also as many professionals listening as there are parents listening, and I want to support those professionals, because they have access to a little more felt safety, maybe a little more privileged in their own nervous system, so that they can increase their own psychological boundaries and stay connected to your dysregulation, your intense desire to need the behavior to change right now, while also holding onto the truth that in order to get the behavior to change, we have to stay focused on the nervous system.    

Robyn: I want us to have more professionals who can stay focused on that truth. So in addition to that, let's just imagine for a moment that there are moments where you can do both too. You can both want the behavior to change and stay focused on actually, it's the nervous system that needs to change if I want the behavior to change. So what are some things we can do when you do have some of that safety or regulation in your own nervous system, where you can hold both? Well, one of the very first things to do, of course, or the first thing to do, of course, is to just pause and notice what's happening here. What's going on underneath this behavior is my child in connection or protection. Which pathway, Owl, Watchdog, Possum, if it's protection and they're on the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, what's the level of intensity? Okay, so let me say that again, connection or protection, which pathway, what's the level of intensity? Then, if we are, you know, Ready for Action or Trickster, level on the continuum, okay, there's four stages on the continuum. If we're at the second, third or fourth level of protection mode, we really do need to turn our attention away from changing the behavior, and instead get curious about, how do I bring safety? How do I bring regulation? How do I bring connection? And I know that sometimes I can feel like we're letting go of our boundaries, or we're letting bad behavior just slide, or sometimes it feels like we're even rewarding bad behavior. So we have to keep holding onto that strong, strong, strong Owl brain and remind ourselves I'm not focused on behavior right now. Behavior is not the focus. I'm focused on what's under the behavior.    

Robyn: And it makes sense that if we want to bring regulation connection to felt safety than a nervous system. We're going to offer something that the person likes. That's how we come back to regulation, connection and felt safety, right? So it makes sense that there's going to feel this conflict of, ooh, rewarding bad behavior. Yes, we are conditioned to believe that. But in this moment, we're not thinking about behavior. We're thinking about bringing the nervous system back to connection mode, okay, and of course, inside all of this, we're remembering that at the core of it all is our nervous system. So we're also not focused on changing our behavior. We're focused on tending to our own nervous system. So I wonder if it might be helpful to connect with yourself with this curiosity, this curiosity I'm about to offer you. Could you invite yourself to wonder, what if I could feel less frantic about this behavior even before the behavior has changed. What if I could feel less frantic, even if the behavior hasn't changed yet, and I'm not telling you to actually do it. I'm not telling you to feel less frantic. I'm not certainly not telling you to, like, shame yourself into feeling less frantic. I'm just inviting you to hold that curiosity. What if I could feel less frantic. So yes, y'all changing behavior is, of course, what we are all here for. And if we want to change behavior, we want to focus on the nervous system. When we are in our Owl brain, when we're feeling really regulated and grounded and connected to ourselves.    

Robyn: There's probably times for us to be curious about, do I really need that behavior to change, or is that behavior just annoying to me? Is actually what needs to change is my own nervous system. I actually think that that's a bigger piece of all of this than we wish to acknowledge. Well, let me just say I actually think that that's true about me more than sometimes I wish to acknowledge sometimes what I want to give the most energy to is, can I strengthen my own regulation? Can I strengthen my own psychological boundaries so that I don't have to take on this person's energy, and I can stay regulated regardless of what this other person is doing. But of course, I am not asking you to stay focused on, you know, increasing your own tolerance for really dangerous behavior when we're talking about behavior that is hurting your child, hurting other people, crossing boundaries, not helping your child move towards what we know their ultimate goal is, which is for their nervous system to feel more integrated, right, to be more regulated, connected and safe. So yes, of course, y'all, behavior change is a super valid goal, but it's not where we want to start from, if we can help it. We want to start from safety, from regulation and connection. We want to remember that that's where behavior emerges from, and even if we still are doing things, to get the behavior to just stop. If we can do that while also remembering, oh, but what I really want to do is get the nervous system to change. If we can do both, we are actually going to contribute to deeper change in the nervous system. Okay, so we want to try, if possible, to hold on to both. Now remember, I am not here to tell you that you're doing this wrong or not good enough. I am not here to tell you somehow you should relinquish all of your own normal nervous system reactions to try to find a way to just walk through the world. Oh, all behavior makes sense. No problem here. No, no.   

Robyn: What you need sometimes isn't to hold on to that truth yourself, but to have people in your life who can hold on to that truth. And that's what I'm here for, and that's what I'm here doing in the world is to get more people to be able to stay anchored in that truth. More people to come into your life who believe all behavior makes sense, right, more professionals, more just regular people out in the world, so that when you're out in public and your kid is struggling, and you're doing your very, very, very best to stay regulated through it. Other people look at you and think, great job. Look at you staying regulated in the face of this just regulation, I see how hard you're working instead of judging you. Wouldn't that just change everything? If you knew when you were out in public working really hard to stay regulated, everybody's energy that was coming at you was energy of like, wow, amazing. Look at how hard you're working, instead of energy of, come on, get your kid to behave.   

Robyn: So let's walk away from this episode with both truths that sometimes, yes, you can hold on to actually, behavior change is not the goalm regulation, connection and felt safety and shifting the nervous system is the goal. Yeah, sometimes you'll be able to hold on to that truth, but also many times you won't. And that's what the rest of us are for. That's what I'm for. That's for what all the professionals are working to train for. That's what your support people are for, right? That's why folks come into the club, so that they can kind of do both. Sometimes they're the ones needing regulation and needing co-regulation. Sometimes they're the ones offering it, right, that we're all doing this together. So on that note, and with that reminder, thank you. Thank you for whatever your role is, for whatever the reason is that you press play on this podcast episode. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing to show up in the world that is shifting nervous systems. It's shifting yours, and that's shifting other people's, and I think that that's the work right now, collectively, thinking about the world's nervous system, how can we create more safety for the people who have the privilege of accessing that safety, and how do we hold all of that. How do we hold all of that safety while acknowledging that there's so many people who don't have that privilege?    

Robyn: Okay, so I'm gonna put down in the show notes some places that you can go next if you're new to The Baffling Behavior Show, and if you haven't heard my episode, all behavior makes sense, or you haven't heard the focus on the nervous system episode or watch that webinar. You can go to those places next. Otherwise, just hit subscribe here on this podcast, right in your podcast app, so you get notified of new episodes. You've got 220 some episodes to choose from. You can go to RobynGobbel.com/podcast you can use the search bar to see if there's an episode that relates to whatever topic it is that you're looking for. And then while you're over at RobynGobbel.com just kind of poke around. Check out the Free Resources page. Look at The Club to see if maybe The Club is something that you want to come and join the next time the club is open. If you're a professional, look at the immersion program and look at all of the professional offerings that we are slowly beginning to add to for professionals as we work on developing our new Baffling Behavior Institute for professionals. I guess just go to my website. That's the summary. Go to my website. RobynGobbel.com, see everything that's available for you, and then I'll see you back here next week on another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show.