How to Stay Curious When Behavior Makes No Sense {EP 225}

Robyn: If you're new to The Baffling Behavior Show, welcome. I'm thrilled that you're here. This is a podcast where we take the science of being relationally, socially and behaviorally human, and we use that science to try to make sense of our kids, most baffling, most overwhelming, most confusing behaviors, so that we can stay more regulated, because that's good for us. Being more regulated is healthy and good for us, and then ultimately, of course, that's good for our kids. So I've taken my decades of study of relational neuroscience, interpersonal neurobiology, attachment theory, polyvagal theory, the neuro sequential model of therapeutics, things like memory processing theory, memory reconsolidation theory, all these fancy schmancy theories that y'all don't have time for. You are justin it, right? You don't have time for reading, memory, reconsolidation theory, that's my job. So I get to take all this cool science. I get to break it down to you, for you, and offer it to you in a way that hopefully this latest, most emerging, cutting edge science can be used by the folks who need it the most, and that's you. So that's how you and I partnered together here on The Baffling Behavior Show. And if this is your first episode, welcome. I'm thrilled that you're here, and especially welcome if you tuned into The Baffling Behavior Show because somebody asked you to, if somebody came to you and said, Could you please listen to this podcast, because I think it would really help you understand my kid, or understand me, or support us better or in a different way. And you said, Yeah, I'll do it. I'll give 25-30 minutes. I'll press play. I'll listen to this podcast. Thank you. We are so grateful, so grateful for you.    

Robyn: Now, curiosity in the face of aggressive behavior, nonsensical behavior, behavior that leaves you scratching your head, going, what on earth? All right, curiosity might seem impossible. It might seem unnecessary, or at the very least, just sort of unimportant. Curiosity, y'all is so so so important. Curiosity like compassion, emerges from a state of the nervous system, and it's the state of the nervous system where change is possible. And so if you've been listening for a while, you might have heard my saying, compassion is the neurobiology of change. Yes, because compassion emerges from the state of the nervous system in which true change is possible, change at the synaptic level, so does curiosity. Curiosity also is a part of that state of the nervous system, and like compassion, we can use curiosity as a kind of pathway or a portal in to that state of the nervous system, like we can use it as a tool to get to that state of the nervous system, or we can use it as information to know that we are there, that we've we've arrived, we're in that state of the nervous system, and it is something that emerges, and that's fantastic, because that helps us feel better when we stay more time in- when we spend more time in what we call here the Owl pathway, or the Owl part of the brain, or the Owl state of the nervous system, when we spend more time in that state, that's good for us.    

Robyn: So noticing when we are curious and then using curiosity as a way to invite us back to this nervous system state.Curiosity is actually a tool, the Owl brain, the Owl pathway is our metaphor here for the ventral vagal state of the autonomic nervous system, being in a state of the nervous system where safety and connection is an option, social engagement. These are like Dr Porges, polyvagal words, the Owl brain is also representing our highest cortical levels of functioning. Right? Our Owl brain kind of sits at the top of our brain, represents our prefrontal cortex, gives us access to things like logic, thinking into the future, understanding cause and effect, having a pause before doing whatever it is that we do next. Overall, the Owl represents the behaviors that we are hoping to see more of in our kids and in ourselves, and when we're faced with a behavior that we don't like or that we want to change in our kids or ourselves. Often, what that means is our Owl has flown away. So looking for characteristics that live in our Owl brain is a great way to help grow and strengthen our Owl brain so we can stay there more and curiosity is absolutely something that lives in the Owl brain.    

Robyn: So in addition to using curiosity as a way to kind of hold on to our Owl brain or invite our Owl brain back, we can also notice when we lack curiosity and notice that that probably means we've shifted into protection mode, that we've fallen down the Watchdog or the Possum pathway. Now, the great irony of all of this is that Watchdogs and Possums aren't so great at noticing right? So when I say, like, oh, we could use this to notice that we've fallen down the Watchdog or the Possum pathway, there is a part of both pathways that still allows for or invites Owl brain experiences, and it's actually that part of the nervous system that is what we really are thinking about, wanting to grow and strengthen. The more we could be in protection mode and be curious, right? The more we could be in protection mode and go, Oh, I'm in protection mode. That's the sweet spot. That's a part of the nervous system. We are really, really, really wanting to grow and change, because that's where the pause lives. That's where we can use the skills that we have are the skills that we teach our kids to help stay regulated, to help hold on further to their Owl brain, to make choices that you know, support relationship instead of push relationship away. So all of the things we're talking about like increasing curiosity, or using curiosity as a tool, or noticing curiosity to mean we are or are not still connected to our Owl brain, all of these moments where we're noticing, where we're being curious, where we're paying attention, all of those are like little, tiny, little exercises that are growing our Owl brain. So it is going to help us stay in our Owl brain longer in the future. Okay, so curiosity is not just information that we're in our Owl brain, but curiosity is a tool that we can use to grow our Owl brain so that curiosity is easier in the future.   

Robyn: Think about curiosity as almost like a tool of co-regulation. With yourself, we've talked about how self regulation is really internalized co regulation, and when the nervous system kind of develops the skill of self-regulation, part of what's happened is that there's enough internalized co-regulation that that nervous system has experienced from other people, and then what happens next is there's this way we like internally co-regulate ourselves, that our nervous system can hold both regulation and co-regulation at the same time, and the parts of our nervous system that are holding regulation. Regulation in a way like offer co-regulation to the parts of our nervous system that are dysregulated. That's how self regulation is really just internalized co-regulation. So we can use curiosity as a way to co regulate ourselves. If we can stay curious about ourselves? Well, that's an obvious way that we're kind of offering co-regulation to ourselves. If we can have that moment of like, Huh, what is happening for me? Why am I doing this? I know when I say that thing or feel that thing or start talking like this, I know that that's a sign that I'm in my Watchdog or my Possum brain, huh? That's interesting. What's up with that? Why did that happen? How can I hold onto my Pwl brain? Right? We can do all of this with ourselves.    

Robyn: But actually staying curious about somebody else's behavior is also a way we're offering co regulation, not just to them, but to ourselves, if I can stay in a state of curiosity about somebody else's baffling behaviors, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be more capable of offering co-regulation to them 100% but also I'm gonna be in a more capable place of offering co-regulation. To myself, y'all, nervous system states are contagious by design. It's dangerous to be with somebody in protection mode, so our nervous system reads somebody in protection mode as dangerous, and then we flip into protection mode. This is normal. This is by design. I do think we can strengthen our own window of tolerance so that we don't flip into protection mode more quickly than we need to, right? So that we can resonate with somebody else's protection mode while also being clear like, well, their protection was not dangerous. It's just information about their nervous system state. I do think that's possible. We can grow that section so that we don't always flip into protection mode at the state of someone else's nervous system. But I also want us to be clear with ourselves that flipping into protection mode when somebody else is in protection mode makes perfect sense. We are neurobiologically like wired to read somebody else's protection mode is very dangerous. Humans in protection mode are dangerous, so we want to stay really, really tuned into that.    

Robyn: So don't give yourself a hard time if you flip into protection mode because your kids flipped into protection mode. This is normal. This is perfectly normal. Where we want to focus our attention is not on not flipping into protection mode in the first place. It's on noticing that our nervous system has shifted. It's on noticing that we've joined our child in their dysregulation, instead of just resonating or connecting with our child in their state of dysregulation, which is important. We want to resonate. We want to connect with as part of, you know the co-regulation dance, but resonating and connecting with and joining with aren't the same thing. And so if we can notice, oh, I'm really feeling my child's dysregulation right now, I've flipped into protection mode because they're in protection mode. If we can really notice that, well that means that we are resonating with and not joining them in their state of dysregulation. That's super. That's super for what happens next. That's super for our capacity to offer co-regulation for them. That's super for our capacity to stay more regulated, which means stay healthier in our own bodies and in our own nervous systems long term. So if we can notice our own nervous system has shifted, take a breath. Come back to connection mode. I have a whole podcast and an infographic all about that, like how to stay regulated when someone else is dysregulated, how not to flip our lids when someone else is flipping their lids. It's also chapter 12 of my book, where I go into it in great, great, great detail.    

Robyn: So I'm not going to go into it in detail right now, right what I want to emphasize is, of course, you flipped into protection mode because someone else is in protection mode to notice it. Come back into regulation, come back into connection mode. So we can really hang on to our own Owl brains and use that to ask the curiosity driven question of, what would this child need for their success to be inevitable? When we ask that question, what we're asking is, why do other people not do this behavior like, Why do other people not steal when there's something that they want? Why do some people not have a total meltdown when they can't have the thing that they want? Why do some people not throw hard, heavy objects when dinner isn't served exactly on time? Because other these are stressors, not getting what you want is a stressor. What allows some folks to manage that stressor in a way that doesn't hurt other people. What skill is this child lacking? What would they need for their success to be inevitable? And then ask yourself about regulation, connection, felt safety, skills, frustration, tolerance, impulse control, empathy, capacity to, you know, understand and care about somebody else's experience, the ability to wait. I mean there are skills that are missing, that are sometimes developmental skills that they don't have yet. Sometimes in the moment where you're asking this question, what they're missing is enough regulation, enough connection, enough felt safety. There's a lot to be curious about. There's so so so much to be curious about. We can ask ourselves, is this behavior coming from connection mode or protection mode, right? So what would this child need for the success to be inevitable? Is this behavior coming from connection mode or protection mode? If it's protection mode, is this the Owl or the Watchdog pathway or the Possum pathway? How far down the pathway? What level of dysregulation is this? Now if we've asked those four questions, even if we don't have any idea what the answer is, if we've asked those four questions, here's the curious thing that happens next. You like how you said we're curious there. Here's the curious thing that happens next is we actually get even more curious. Curiosity brings more curiosity.   

Robyn: Instead of getting answers to those questions, it's almost like those questions remind us who knows what the answer is, and finding the answer isn't exactly what's important. What's important is that we are remembering that those questions need to be asked because this behavior is about regulation, connection of health safety. It's not about them being good or bad or what punishment to use. So interestingly enough, we're not even necessarily seeking the answers, though, sometimes we do get an answer to those questions, and we can use that answer and things get better, and that's amazing. Sometimes asking the question is exactly the tool. Asking the question leads to more questions and being in a state of curiosity, that's that's where we're aiming for. From that curious place, it is just so much easier to remember something about this behavior makes sense, even if I have no idea what it is, and even if I never will. Something about this behavior is protective. Something about this behavior is this person's nervous system believing that this is the best choice for them, this is the best option for them in this moment. That doesn't mean I have to tolerate this behavior or think it's okay or not, do something to address it, boundary it, change it, stop it, of course not, but it does change the approach that we bring it changes how we see this child, and that changes everything.    

Robyn: And of course, also, it might give us some good ideas. You might use your behavior detective skills, and you might see that this child has a sensory need that they need met, right like in chapter seven of Raising Kids With Big Baffling Behaviors. One of the things that I talk about with Nat is all the toiletry wasting that their child is doing, and they're squeezing and they're dumping, and Nat is, of course, so frustrated by this total waste of toiletries that cost money. It's wasteful, it's expensive, of course. And no way would I suggest like, hey, this must be meeting a sensory need, so let's just allow your kid to keep wasting all the toiletries? No, no, no, of course not. But let's use that as information so we can, number one, reframe the behavior and stop giving character logical assignments to the behavior like they're just wasteful, or they're not grateful, or whatever you know, it is that we could, we could assign a character, a logical, you know, reason to that behavior. So, number one, I want to stop that. Number two, then we can go, Hmm, well, what is it about the toiletries? What is it about the squeezing? What is it about the dumping? Is there some sort of way that this child is attempting to bring regulation to their nervous system, but unfortunately, the attempts aren't working right. So is there a way we can organize and regulate their attempt so that their attempt at regulation can actually bring themregulation. So what can we squeeze that's not a waste? What can we offer that actually promotes regulation instead of continued dysregulation?    

Robyn: So yeah, sometimes curiosity gives us great ideas about what we can do to actually support or offer our child, more connection, more co-regulation, more safety. Sometimes the curiosity is just a way to keep ourselves regulated, to keep ourselves focused on what we know is true, which is like even that this behavior is so baffling, it makes no sense to me in any way, shape or form, and I absolutely do need it to stop. I can trust that it does make sense. Curiosity is something that the Owl brain offers. Curiosity lets us know we're in our Owl brains. Curiosity helps us stay connected to our owl brains. Curiosity helps us offer co-regulation to ourselves internally and to our child. Curiosity, like compassion, is the state of the nervous system, curiosity actually is part of the neurobiology of change. Sometimes, y'all, sometimes we just simply can't fix a behavior. It is just not in our power to change someone else's behavior. It's just not as much as we want it to be. It's simply just isn't that doesn't mean we abandon the reality that some behavior really does need to change, but we can be with that reality and also be with the reality that I actually am not in control of anybody else's behavior, though I can stay curious about why this person is struggling and see if I can make offerings that would support their Owl brain and sticking around a little bit longer.    

Robyn: So here's your homework for the week. I don't really give homework, but here's an invitation I have for you this week. Can you ask the question, what does this child need for their success to be inevitable? You can even ask that question about yourself, what do I need? What would I need for my success to be inevitable, I would need more help. I would need more support. I would need somebody to come and do the laundry. I would need my bills to be paid so that I'm not worried about that. Ask yourself, what are the things that you would need for your success to be inevitable? And what that allows you to do is notice that your struggles are not a moral failing of yourself. Your struggles are because you don't have what you need. And actually, even if you can't change that, bringing coherence to it brings you cues of safety. The same thing is true for your child. What is what would they need for their success to be inevitable, and even if you can't give them those things, just noticing that those things are true helps, one, you remember that this isn't their moral failing. And two, helps you stay in that state of curiosity. That's good for you. That's good for your kid.    

Robyn: Now, if you're new to the show and you are wondering, well, how do I bring curiosity to behaviors like lying or stealing or back talk or, you know, people pleasing behaviors? Here's what I want you to do, go to RobynGobbel.com/podcast there's a search bar there, and you can use that search bar to see if I have an episode that addresses the thing you're specifically looking for. I wish podcasts were more searchable here in your podcast app where you're listening there just simply aren't that technology doesn't exist yet. So go back, go to my website, and you can search there. You can find the episode that I have related to whatever it is you're searching for. You can take note of the episode number, then you can come back here to your podcast app and scroll till you get to that number. That's the best I can do to help you find what you're looking for here on The Baffling Behavior Show. And stay curious. Stay curious about what's underneath, lying, stealing, people, pleasing, not being able to tolerate no those kinds of really stressful behaviors. How do we stay curious about what's underneath them?    

Robyn: Of course, of course, you can get yourself a copy of Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors. The whole book is written in a way where I'm hoping to grow your curiosity and grow your compassion so you could get Raising Kids With Big, Baffling Behaviors. Wherever you buy books, it's paperback, ebook and audiobook. I read the audiobook and then just explore my my website, I've got oodles of free resources for you over on my website. If you're a parent and you're looking for more support, you can consider coming to join us over in the club. If you're a professional looking for more support, check out our new baffling behavior Training Institute and the professional immersion program, which is about to go into its fifth cohort. We are taking applications for our fifth cohort of our professional immersion program. It's all over on my website at RobynGobbel.com, alrighty. Y'all. It was so wonderful to share this good, good good morning with you, and I cannot wait to be with you again next week here on The Baffling Behavior Show, bye!